Encounter Pwr Recharge House Rule?

[Uller]

I've seen a few threads suggesting house rules to recharge encounter powers. One of 4e's biggest draw backs to me is combat grind. Last night we had a lvl 5 party in a EL8 encounter that included an elite boss monster. The first 3 or 4 rounds of the fight were exciting....minions everywhere, PCs and monsters maneuvering to make the most of powers or avoid enemy powers. The players had a sense that any round could see them down and bleeding.

But due to a few bad rolls on both sides, the fight dragged on. It wasn't clear who would win (normally I don't alllow combats with forgone conclusions to drag on....I have the monsters flee or surrender or just die on the next hit), but no one had any fight changing powers left. Occasionally the monsters would recharge a power but the PCs were down to all at wills and I could see boredom setting in. It became a static fight with everyone just exchanging at-wills. When the fight finally ended it was more of a relief than a climactic ending to a 3 session long assault on an enemy stronghold.

One thing I noticed is that players rarely use their second winds. Occasionally if they are in real trouble they will use an AP to use their second wind. I'm thinking of a house rule where PCs can use their second wind to recharge an encounter power. Elites and Solos can use an AP to recharge an encounter or recharge power.

Has anyone tried this or something similar? My biggest concern is the wizard. Rarely do I see wizards needing to use second winds at all and their encounter powers tend to be more earth shaking than other classes...so I am not sure it works for them.

 

[GreyICE]

Well the first question is "what was the elite?" If it was a high level elite Soldier, I've found your problem right there. EL+3 Elites should never be soldiers - that's just a problem. A lurker/leader/brute would be far more appropriate.

If it was just a matter of the dice gods screaming at you, I'd end the encounter ambiguously. Maybe have the monster retreat, vowing revenge. I mean if it's sentient, then why would it stick around for a combat that's turning into a grind it's not sure it can win? Have it do an AOE knockback/prone and flee the scene.

Really, I think the problem probably lies somewhere in the encounter design. I smell Soldiers (Soldiers are like... never a good idea).

 

[Uller]

Really, I think the problem probably lies somewhere in the encounter design. I smell Soldiers (Soldiers are like... never a good idea).

Yes, the Elite was a soldier. However, I fixed him to use MM3 math AND I increased the damage he does by 25% and reduced his HP by 25% (this is something I've been doing with high HP monsters to speed combat and reduce grind already). So he was dropping +14 vs AC attacks doing 2d8+8 damage...Yet even then the fight went on and on and it just seemed like it would have been more fun if the PCs (and even the Elite) could have recharged a power rather than just continue to exchange blows.

So...it's entirely possible that this was a case of bad encounter design but this isn't the only time that I've seen combats end up being a at-will slug fests reminiscent of BD&D.

If the fight was decided, I'd have been happy to have him retreat...but one good hit could have brought down a PC and changed the balance.

 

[GreyICE]

MM3 math or no, Soldiers are bad choices for high level enemies. I mean look at a (straight out of MM3) EL8 Soldier - it has an AC of 24. An EL8 Brute? 20.

Those 4 points of AC cost you 20% hit rate - and that's huge. Attacks don't hit. That means attacks that weaken defenses don't hit. That means that a lot of the methods for dealing with high level enemies don't quite work.

To compensate, Soldiers typically have bad damage (For their level - at Lvl+3, that's still dangerous) - which doesn't help the feeling of it basically being a slugfest.

Even given the baseline of +2, it's still bad. It's this long, endless drain on combat. My personal rule of thumb is that Soldiers should be at most EL+1, and usually on level or LVL-1.

If you want to do it, the second wind to regain an encounter power is... not the worst idea ever (although it should take a minor action, not a standard, since 2 at-wills is better than most any encounter power).

It's fine for the monster to retreat if the PCs are on equal footing, unless they're straight up willing to fight to the death. I mean if you told me I had a 40% chance of dying while doing something, I'd just laugh and be like... 'nah, I'll pass.' If he has time to realize things aren't necessarily going his way, he has time to plan a retreat.

Also, it's a problem that will fade at level 7, since the third encounter power makes it a lot harder to run out (unless people just spam all their encounter powers immediately rather than saving them for when they work best, which is their own damn fault).

 

[D'karr]

Yes, the Elite was a soldier. However, I fixed him to use MM3 math AND I increased the damage he does by 25% and reduced his HP by 25% (this is something I've been doing with high HP monsters to speed combat and reduce grind already). So he was dropping +14 vs AC attacks doing 2d8+8 damage...Yet even then the fight went on and on and it just seemed like it would have been more fun if the PCs (and even the Elite) could have recharged a power rather than just continue to exchange blows.

So...it's entirely possible that this was a case of bad encounter design but this isn't the only time that I've seen combats end up being a at-will slug fests reminiscent of BD&D.

If the fight was decided, I'd have been happy to have him retreat...but one good hit could have brought down a PC and changed the balance.

The problem is that soldiers have higher defenses, which creates grind because even if you reduce their hit points the PCs will be missing more often. Every miss with an encounter or daily power adds to the grind in two ways, the PC is not getting that power back, and the miss doesn't do enough damage to rapidly eliminate the enemy.

 

[Evenglare]

I haven't read any of the other post but OP I suggest maybe using action points as a recharge, or even just giving them like... 3-5 points a day to recharge an encounter, or maybe even letting them use 2 to recharge a daily or something.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

I have a houserule where I allow players to burn surges to recover powers; encounter powers, daily powers, and item powers. The rate of burn depends on the power's relative level.

I've had great success with it so far. It creates more "nova" potential, but still less so than previous editions. I also use a slower healing surge and natural hit point recovery mechanic, which helps balance the temptation to burn through all surges and powers at once. I can run big smackdown fights and they don't tend to drag any more than a normal battle would. It also gives players a little more agency, which they tend to like.

 

[S'mon]

I used to have the grind problem, but since I halved all monster hp everything goes swimmingly.
If anything, some monsters can drop a bit too fast now when the PCs get their act together - last two sessions we had an 8th level group of 3 Strikers & a Wizard, and they were really chewing through my Ogres. I've been thinking that if I wanted an enemy to stick around awhile I would need to make him a Solo Soldier 3 levels higher than the PCs.
I've not seen an issue with PCs running out of powers. OTOH we only have ca 2.5 hours to play in, and it sucks having to quit in the middle of a fight. If you have 5+ hours and enjoy the long fights then I think spending Second Wind as a free or minor action to recharge Encounter powers is a good idea.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I think dropping Second Wind to a move action (still a minor for dwarves) is a great idea and my group has done this. WE also allow a second power called Fey Blessing, which is kinda like Second Wind but gives extra hit points instead of better defenses.

Both of those help a lot. We never used second wind for a standard action.

Between these two power the party can survive bigger fights and running out of surges is a definite possibility. Before, people tended to die with a lot of unusable surges.

 

[Mengu]

For encounters that I think may take long, I tend to introduce a timed event of some sort that recharges encounter powers or does other fancy things. Maybe killing one of the undead they are fighting releases a powerful soul that was trapped, which grants some boon, like recharging encounter powers, spending a healing surge, or the like. In another fight, this might be done via attuning to an obelisk, in yet another encounter, it might involve drinking from the magic fountain, and in yet another, it might be the inspiring horn blown by the dwarves that are coming to rescue them, if only they can survive a bit longer. Such recharge mechanics can both add to story, and reduce boredom, without handing PC's a new mechanic to abuse.