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This exercise was primarily focused on establishing guidelines for power design. I'm mostly hoping for interesting debate and a vague guide for DMs and players alike for comparing powers. While this post deals with daily powers, you may find the encounter or at-will discussion interesting.
All powers are graded assuming they are used effectively - if a power requires a second person in melee to work, don't take it in a party with no other melee. In many cases you'll find that personal preference varies from these grades - while a power may be extraordinary in theory or combined with the right build or party, take the power that is most fun for you!
Grades
A - Excellent. This power brings something special to the table in terms of tactical ability or damage output. It may be too powerful, especially in the hands of the wrong class.
B - Good. This is a solid power. Most powers should fall into this grade.
C - Okay. This power is certainly adequate but pales somewhat in comparison to other powers.
D - Poor. This power is certainly usable (and may even excel in certain rare situations), but is definitely lacking compared to other options.
F - Compares extremely poorly to other powers and should likely be improved or ignored.
A+ powers in particular are at a dangerous balance level. If designing a new power and it is on par, or better, than an A+, most likely you should go back to the drawing board and tweak some things.
B- is what I considered the baseline for comparison of powers. A bit worse and it's in the C territory, but a fair amount of distance to get into the A range.
Basic Grading Guidelines:
Giving an ally a bonus to attack or giving penalties to defense is extremely powerful for setting up your ally's abilities that do high damage, stun, etc.
Raw damage is pretty good, but in general I'm going to value tactical bonuses such as stun, daze, blind, or large amounts of forced movement more highly. These set up combat advantage and deny effective action.
Penalties to attack can prevent bad status effects, like daze and stun, as well as damage, so that's probably next.
Knock Prone and Immobilize are pretty close. Prone is often no penalty at all, but it has some great niche use in taking down fliers and when an enemy can't do any good action and stand. Immobilize works great on melee only monsters and combined with zones and such.
Weaken is fine, but it's just less effective than that. Monsters don't do a ton of damage so weaken is only so good.
Slow and some similar effects are... even further after that.
Area effects get scored well overall, since you often fight a lot of monsters in 4e and it's important to clear out minions before they can do significant damage. Big areas that target enemies only are pure gold since you can output a ton of damage that way.
Powers that use ability bonuses can often be much stronger for some characters than others. For low level powers, I'll assume a 2 to 6 range depending on the ability, but as levels progress that can climb into the 6-10 range for some builds so I'll need to take that into account. Under no circumstances will I consider a power that uses an ability score that it 'might be a 0 or 1' just to prove a power could be weaker, just as I won't assume that weapon powers use fists for poor damage and no proficiency bonus.
Please feel free to disagree with any suggested grade I give at all, pointing out flaws in my logic, grading guidelines, etc. If a power is exceptional under extremely limited circumstances (Cause Fear on a large+ creature in a blood pulse area, for instance), please make note if that's why you're suggesting the change and otherwise it's some other grade.
If comparing powers of different levels - for example a level 5 power to a level 1 power, note that I am grading in relation to other powers of its level so the level 5 is expected to be better (much as you'd expect a 5th grader's Math to be better than a 1st grader's, at the same grade level or even worse). I can't be exact in how much of a drop you'll see, but don't be surprised by at least a full letter difference.
Daily Powers without a notable Effect or Miss result (or Reliable) will be marked down.
Given the nature of daily powers, I expect the balance (and my own guesses) to be pretty all over the place, so your help is especially appreciated on these.
Last edited by keterys; 12th March 2009 at 04:56 PM..
Reason: Adding daily 15s
Daily 1 Powers:
Quick note on damage - I'm assuming a baseline of 3W (or 3d8 - 3d10) damage for powers as I go through them, and I'm assuming some little bit added onto that 3 dice.
*CLERIC*
B- / Avenging Flame
A / Beacon of Hope
C+ / Cascade of Light
A- / Guardian of Faith
Cascade of Light is short range and under most circumstances I don't expect that vulnerability to add up to that much extra before it's saved against. If it's trivial to 'game' the vulnerability for a ton of damage with conjurations, zones, and ongoing damage, let me know. Avenging Flame's ongoing damage can really rack up or force a creature to take no action for a round or two, which is quite nice. Unfortunately it gets no ongoing damage on a miss. Beacon of Hope hits a nice large area and can add a metric ton of healing over the course of an encounter, and even potentially does a healthy amount up front. The weaken can hit several enemies which is also a solid kicker. Guardian of Faith is particularly good against undead. Its abilities as a blocker were updated away, but not requiring a sustain action and especially when working with a fighter or some other penalty or difficulty moving (Pin the Foe, what have you) it can really do very good damage over the course of an encounter.
I may be slightly overvaluing Reliable, but it has a certain amount of 'Feel good' points I'll admit. I have a difficult time rating any of the fighter powers over each other, which I find interesting and cool. Brute Strike is very solid damage that you know will eventually connect. Comeback Strike is a healing surge you can count on with decent damage. Compares well to Paladin's Judgement. Villain's Menace is the best 'meta' power of the bunch and would almost assuredly rise higher in ranking if it wasn't pretty lackluster on a Miss and I didn't expect its relatively minor bonus to attack to sometimes not come up due to stacking.
*PALADIN*
C+ / On Pain of Death
B- / Paladin's Judgement
A- / Radiant Delirium
On Pain of Death is very short range and likely saved against fairly quickly. The main advantage it has over, say, Avenging Flame is that it's a damage roll for the ongoing damage which means you can add on your enhancement bonus or potentially other things like feat and power bonuses, but I ultimately find it disappointing and would rather mark it lower. Unlike Avenging Flame you can also guarantee you won't take damage by not attacking (which is still a solid benefit if it prevents attacks for a round). Paladin's Judgement is a guaranteed healing surge which is quite useful. No damage on a miss is disappointing however. Radiant Delirium is a guaranteed daze (potent) and deals radiant damage. It has short range, but the AC penalty can be quite nice even if it only lasts a round or so.
*RANGER*
C+ / Hunter's Bear Trap
B+ / Jaws of the Wolf
B- / Split the Tree
C+ / Sudden Strike
Hunter's Bear Trap is tolerable I guess. Okay damage, side effect (slow) not that great, and probably saved against quickly. It has its uses (quick strike on a melee foe far away) and you can get lucky with it on failed saves. Split the Tree is a neat resolution mechanic and all, but it's very possible to miss entirely with it and the requirement to have 2 enemies within 3 squares is a notable limitation. Sudden Strike is okay, but it does no damage on a Miss and the off-hand strike only does 1W which is a bit lackluster. Jaws of the Wolf is just damage, but its Miss damage is almost as much as most of the powers do on a hit, so it edges ahead on pure damage potential.
Easy Target could be pretty decent, if the target fails a bunch of saves, but the kind of target that can take multiple rounds of damage to make this Daily worthwhile is not the kind of target that fails saves that often, so I find it pretty disappointing. I do find it amusing that a Miss often results in a longer lasting Combat Advantage than a Hit. Trick Strike I really like. A slide every single time you hit can really let you do some fun (and even powerful) things, but it suffers from the lack of any damage on a Miss and is pretty much just a gimmick for solos and some elites. Blinding Barrage gets a little bit for doing solid damage assuming you're attacking at least two people and blind is a very powerful side effect, often crippling an enemy's turn in addition to setting up the bonuses to attack and sneak attack.
*WARLOCK*
A / Armor of Agathys
C / Curse of the Dark Dream
C / Dread Star
C / Flames of Phlegethos
I suspect I'll get some objections on the warlock powers from those who argue you can mostly avoid missing so I should rate the non-Armor ones better, but there you go. Armor of Agathys I rated highest because it's a ton of temp hp at the level you get (well more than a surge's worth) and the guaranteed (auto minion killing, even) damage for a brave warlock really adds up to a ton over the course of an entire encounter. Curse of the Dark Dream is a decent power with reasonable damage and a solid slide, but its sustain will be quickly saved against and it does so little on a Miss. Dread Star does low damage, but it's radiant so that helps slightly. A hit immobilizes for a turn, and I like the auto-penalty to Will defense even if the penalty is pretty small and quickly saved against... but again I'm finding it pretty disappointing on a Miss. Flames of Phlegethos does high damage on a Hit, negligible on a miss.
*WARLORD*
B+ / Bastion of Defense
A+ / Lead the Attack
B / Pin the Foe
C+ / White Raven Onslaught
I personally am a little iffy on the Warlord's powers so would particularly appreciate feedback on these. They're very party dependent - I do appreciate that they have a lingering cool effect for the entire rest of the battle. Bastion of Defense is definitely a bit disappointing on a Miss, but that's very respectable temp hp at low level and when it hits +1 to all defenses is always appreciated, and it's decent damage. Lead the Attack is a gigantic bonus to attack for an entire encounter. If you can setup a hit with someone else, this power potentially halves the duration of a Solo encounter. On top of pretty solid damage at that. Pin the Foe is neat. No damage on miss is disappointing, but being able to completely deny shifts for the duration of a battle can give you some great synergy with other powers (zones and conjurations) and make it much easier to flank, or give people free opportunity attacks, and all that without hitting. White Raven Onslaught is certainly a cool special effect, but I think it's a little too specialized, especially on a miss where you have to pick a single person to key off of. This is the kind of effect I like, so I'll admit I'm disappointed that I find the power's implementation a bit lackluster.
*WIZARD*
C / Acid Arrow
A / Flaming Sphere
B- / Freezing Cloud
A+ / Sleep (Disclaimer: Only for certain builds, particularly at Paragon+ Tier)
B+ / Phantom Chasm
Acid Arrow can potentially do a fair amount of damage, but I think its damage is probably a little low and its 'area' less useful. Flaming Sphere can do a ton of automatic damage and is nice and maneuverable. Also good for a wizard down to at-wills for a damage boost. Freezing Cloud doesn't look like much, but it covers a reasonable area and anyone caught in the initial cloud is attacked twice with automatic Miss damage so it can be pretty respectable. Sleep is a power that will probably be accused of being both broken and useless, depending on who you ask. For orb wizards, there are many who claim they would not give it up until 29th, if ever. That said, I suspect some of its power is purely based on errata-to-be in the form of making some way for the creature to wake up other than making its save. For now, however, it is the most powerful control effect (unconsciousness) short of death and is a guaranteed slow on a decent-sized group of enemies. Phantom Chasm is a guaranteed immobilize to a small area, which is potentially very powerful. Knocking prone is nice, though enemies will likely just stand up while immobilized to no harm except for attacks made between the wizard's turn and theirs. Its damage is only okay.
Last edited by keterys; 10th July 2008 at 07:47 AM..
I think you mostly nailed it, though at lower levels I think flaming sphere is better than sleep. But I also assume a damaging effect will wake them...
I think you mostly nailed it, though at lower levels I think flaming sphere is better than sleep. But I also assume a damaging effect will wake them...
Agree here. Also, at lower levels, your penalty on saves isn't high enough to hit solos reliably with a "take a nap".
Flaming sphere, however, is good battlefield control (as in providing a strong disincentive to stay there) and minion muncher in one neat little package.
Cascade of Light is short range and under most circumstances I don't expect that vulnerability to add up to that much extra before it's saved against.
It really depends on party makeup. A group with clerics, paladins, perhaps a wizard using Color Spray...it can be handy. A group where only the cleric has radiant attacks...not so much.
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Beacon of Hope hits a nice large area and can add a metric ton of healing over the course of an encounter, and even potentially does a healthy amount up front. The weaken can hit several enemies which is also a solid kicker.
This is a definite 'A' power in my book, and essential for tough encounters. It can completely change the course of a fight when the group is on their last legs. Get a heal, dish out weaken to multiple targets, and significantly boost any other healing the group gets? Sign me up!
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Guardian of Faith is particularly good against undead. Its abilities as a blocker were updated away, but not requiring a sustain action and especially when working with a fighter or some other penalty or difficulty moving (Pin the Foe, what have you) it can really do very good damage over the course of an encounter.
Since the conjuration doesn't take up space anymore, the cleric can put the GoF into his square to dish out damage to anyone engaging him in melee. I still think Beacon of Hope is better, but not by much.
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Brute Strike is very solid damage that you know will eventually connect.
Decent, but quickly outclassed by later powers. Both Dizzying Blow (5th) and Victorious Surge (9th) have the same damage and reliability, but also have an additional effect. Since you can't trade out the power until at least 13th, you'd better be dedicated to damage above all else to take this...and most fighters act more like defenders than strikers. In the long run, I think most fighters are better off with the additional utility of the other choices.
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Villain's Menace is the best 'meta' power of the bunch and would almost assuredly rise higher in ranking if it wasn't pretty lackluster on a Miss and I didn't expect its relatively minor bonus to attack to sometimes not come up due to stacking.
Fighters don't get many self-buffs, much less buffs that do damage. Even if you miss, the +1 to hit and +2 damage makes you feel that your action wasn't wasted. And if you can get a short-term boost to hit (perhaps a cleric using Righteous Brand), you're more likely to connect with this power and get a sizable boost for the entire encounter. I would rate this higher than either of the other two choices.
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Paladin's Judgement is a guaranteed healing surge which is quite useful. No damage on a miss is disappointing however.
It's basically a Brute Strike that trades the reliable keyword for a guaranteed healing surge.
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Radiant Delirium is a guaranteed daze (potent) and deals radiant damage. It has short range, but the AC penalty can be quite nice even if it only lasts a round or so.
Guaranteed daze gives combat advantage for a +2 to hit the target, and the -2 AC is effectively another +2 to hit the target, for a total of +4. It's a perfect way to set up a tough creature for a pounding. I'd move this up to an A-.
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Hunter's Bear Trap is the clunker of the bunch I think. Subpar damage, side effect (slow) not that great, and probably saved against quickly. It has its uses and you can get lucky with it, but eh - this is a daily we're talking about.
More useful for a bowman than a TWF ranger. The guaranteed slow lets you stay out of range, and the ongoing damage makes the attack as good as a [3W] attack if it hits.
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Split the Tree is a neat resolution mechanic and all, but it's very possible to miss entirely with it and the requirement to have 2 enemies within 3 squares is a notable limitation.
The two enemy requirement is minimal, because you use this daily when you're fighting multiple foes. Yes, it doesn't help against a solo...but that's about the only time you're out of luck. Taking the better of two attack rolls basically halves your chance of a miss, and the damage on each arrow is as good as any of the other daily choices (with the exception of Hunter's Bear Trap). It's definitely the top choice for a bow-using ranger.
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Sudden Strike is okay, but it does no damage on a Miss and the off-hand strike only does 1W which is a bit lackluster.
Well, you get two attacks (the secondary is under Effect, not Hit, so you always get the second roll). While Jaws of the Wolf is superior for damage, the weakening effect is good when facing off against an elite or solo.
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Jaws of the Wolf is just damage, but its Miss damage is almost as much as most of the powers do on a hit, so it edges ahead on pure damage potential.
Less chance to hit twice than Split the Tree, but being able to hit the same target twice pushes it ahead on damage. It effectively does [2W] if both attacks miss, [3W] if one hits, and [4W] (plus double your bonuses) if both hit. Definitely the top choice for a melee ranger.
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Trick Strike I really like. A slide every single time you hit can really let you do some fun (and even powerful) things, but it suffers from the lack of any damage on a Miss.
Useful if you're lacking a Warlord, but about the only time it will matter is against an Elite or Solo. As a striker, you should be dropping a single target of your level fairly quick if you have combat advantage. Speaking of which...
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Blinding Barrage gets a little bit for doing solid damage assuming you're attacking at least two people and blind is a very powerful side effect, often crippling an enemy's turn in addition to setting up the bonuses to attack and sneak attack.
The opportunity to do [2W] damage plus a blind to several targets is a no-brainer, especially since blinded targets grants combat advantage and imposes a strong penalty to hit. I'd up this to an A-. Even a wizard's sleep spell only slows targets in the first turn of its effect. AoE Blind is amazing control for a striker.
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I suspect I'll get some objections on the warlock powers from those who argue you can mostly avoid missing so I should rate the non-Armor ones better, but there you go.
I agree with you for the most part. Armor of Agathys is even better if the warlock has Wintertouched...being able to gain combat advantage for an entire encounter in addition to bonus damage is quite nice.
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Bastion of Defense is definitely a bit disappointing on a Miss, but that's very respectable temp hp at low level and when it hits +1 to all defenses is always appreciated, and it's decent damage.
Like my comment on Paladin's Judgement, this is basically a Brute Strike that trades the reliable keyword for guaranteed temporary HP for your allies (but not you, unfortunately).
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Lead the Attack is a gigantic bonus to attack for an entire encounter. If you can setup a hit with someone else, this power potentially halves the duration of a Solo encounter. On top of pretty solid damage at that.
One of the best effects in the game, though it is vital to have someone else who can impose an AC penalty on the target and/or a hit bonus on you before using this power. Any Tactical Warlord who skips this power is a fool.
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Pin the Foe is neat.
Again, Brute Strike that trades reliable for a different effect. Useful, but against a solo I'm not too worried about shifts (as most solos have reach or other special abilities to help them attack without taking an OA), and I'm not keen on blowing a daily versus an ordinary foe. Which pretty much relegates its usefulness to elites, and many elites are perfectly happy to stand still and beat you to death.
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White Raven Onslaught is certainly a cool special effect, but I think it's a little too specialized, especially on a miss where you have to pick a single person to key off of.
In general, I find that the ability to give a single ally a slide (without being near him) multiple times per combat trumps the ability to prevent a single foe from shifting. It has many useful applications, from flanking tough creatures to moving away after unleashing a point-blank power (yes, the wizard can use this after using a close blast or burst, to move out of harm's way). Should definitely be upgraded to a B...anyone with AoE attacks can trigger this easily due to multiple attack rolls.
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Acid Arrow can potentially do a fair amount of damage, but I think its damage is probably a little low and its 'area' less useful.
It's good damage if you can make the attack rolls, but harder to place it so it hits several enemies without hitting an ally.
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Flaming Sphere can do a ton of automatic damage and is nice and maneuverable. Also good for a wizard down to at-wills for a damage boost.
I consider this the best power of the bunch, as it can last for a full encounter and doesn't worry about an enemy rolling well on a save. A solid A in my book.
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Freezing Cloud doesn't look like much, but it covers a reasonable area and anyone caught in the initial cloud is attacked twice with automatic Miss damage so it can be pretty respectable.
It functions mainly as area denial, but doesn't do automatic damage (which means minions who avoid getting hit can walk right through it). It also targets Fortitude, which is generally the highest of the non-AC defenses. Decent area, but Flaming Sphere is MUCH more useful. I'd rate it a C+.
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Sleep (some text deleted)...For now, however, it is the most powerful control effect (unconsciousness) short of death and is a guaranteed slow on a decent-sized group of enemies.
To be clear, the affected creatures will get an action before they make their first save, so it takes a bit of time to knock foes out. It's wonderful for Orb specialists, less so for other types of wizards (55% chance for normal foes to avoid unconsciousness, more for elites and solos). It's a power you want to use early in a fight, rather than when you're down to single-digit HP...you may be dead before they fall unconscious. Because of that, I can't give it an A+...though it is definitely an A for the right build.
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Phantom Chasm is a guaranteed immobilize to a small area, which is potentially very powerful. Knocking prone is nice, though enemies will likely just stand up while immobilized to no harm except for attacks made between the wizard's turn and theirs. Its damage is only okay.
One interpretation is that you can't stand up until the end of the next turn if you're hit by the power...mainly due to bad wording in the power (could use a comma after prone). More damage than Freezing Cloud, has two secondary effects (prone and immobilize), has a longer range, and targets Will. What's not to like?
It really depends on party makeup. A group with clerics, paladins, perhaps a wizard using Color Spray...it can be handy. A group where only the cleric has radiant attacks...not so much.
It's vulnerability 5 (the cleric who cast it), not radiant. Radiant would certainly make it cooler
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This is a definite 'A' power in my book, and essential for tough encounters. It can completely change the course of a fight when the group is on their last legs. Get a heal, dish out weaken to multiple targets, and significantly boost any other healing the group gets? Sign me up!
It's definitely great (and almost assuredly what I intend to take with any cleric unless we have an overabundance of healing), but I wouldn't expect the kicker to affect more than 4 or so other powers, so that's 20 healed and the initial spellcast depends on how early in the fight you cast it, but let's call that 3 * (5 + Wis) to be generous. So something like 50 healed. Amusingly, the amount it heals doesn't scale all that much with level but I suppose the amount weaken potentially blocks does. I'll upgrade it, though having run those numbers. My gut instinct was to do so, but I tried to avoid giving out too many A powers other than a couple obvious ones.
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Since the conjuration doesn't take up space anymore, the cleric can put the GoF into his square to dish out damage to anyone engaging him in melee. I still think Beacon of Hope is better, but not by much.
Better in the paladin's square Or the monster's square while threatened by the fighter.
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Decent, but quickly outclassed by later powers. Both Dizzying Blow (5th) and Victorious Surge (9th) have the same damage and reliability, but also have an additional effect. Since you can't trade out the power until at least 13th, you'd better be dedicated to damage above all else to take this...and most fighters act more like defenders than strikers. In the long run, I think most fighters are better off with the additional utility of the other choices.
You can retrain at any level so it doesn't really matter what you get at 5th and 9th for this equation. It's more of a 'do you want to do a d10 or get a healing surge' and I suspect the answer depends on how much healing via team mates the fighter has available.
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Fighters don't get many self-buffs, much less buffs that do damage. Even if you miss, the +1 to hit and +2 damage makes you feel that your action wasn't wasted. And if you can get a short-term boost to hit (perhaps a cleric using Righteous Brand), you're more likely to connect with this power and get a sizable boost for the entire encounter. I would rate this higher than either of the other two choices.
If you have a cleric using Righteous Brand, you probably won't get that hit bonus half the time So, to compare against Brute Strike, cause it's convenient:
Lose 1W (so 5.5 damage) all the time and have a 40% chance to lose the entire hit (so call that, say, 2d10+8 or 19) vs 60% chance of (some handwaving extra hits in with autohitting, sorta) +24 dmg and 40% of +12 dmg... so yeah, I'll upgrade it. I still think you'll be pretty disappointed if you Miss, but it's just like Lead the Attack on stacking the deck to make it land.
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It's basically a Brute Strike that trades the reliable keyword for a guaranteed healing surge.
3W is the standard damage for Dailies... I don't think comparing it to Reliable helps that much
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Guaranteed daze gives combat advantage for a +2 to hit the target, and the -2 AC is effectively another +2 to hit the target, for a total of +4. It's a perfect way to set up a tough creature for a pounding. I'd move this up to an A-.
Hmm, maybe. I think I'm going to take a step back and look at all of the possible A candidates tomorrow and make sure it's clear what might be eligible.
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More useful for a bowman than a TWF ranger. The guaranteed slow lets you stay out of range, and the ongoing damage makes the attack as good as a [3W] attack if it hits.
It's not a single player game. Slow rarely lets stops a foe from engaging _someone_. Agree on the 'if it hits', but it doesn't halve if it doesn't so it's no better than 3W I figured and I rate slow really low.
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The two enemy requirement is minimal, because you use this daily when you're fighting multiple foes. Yes, it doesn't help against a solo...but that's about the only time you're out of luck. Taking the better of two attack rolls basically halves your chance of a miss, and the damage on each arrow is as good as any of the other daily choices (with the exception of Hunter's Bear Trap). It's definitely the top choice for a bow-using ranger.
I've seen it not used at all 3 times, miss completely one time, and used wastefully (on guys that a daily was overkill on) once. Color me unimpressed.
I do agree it's the best archer choice, but that doesn't make me think it's _good_
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Well, you get two attacks (the secondary is under Effect, not Hit, so you always get the second roll). While Jaws of the Wolf is superior for damage, the weakening effect is good when facing off against an elite or solo.
Elites and Solos really don't do that much damage, Weaken is cool, but it's not powerful. If this had a Miss 'Half damage' line I would rate this decently though since a little over 3W + Weaken is definitely on par with the Baseline.
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Less chance to hit twice than Split the Tree, but being able to hit the same target twice pushes it ahead on damage. It effectively does [2W] if both attacks miss, [3W] if one hits, and [4W] (plus double your bonuses) if both hit. Definitely the top choice for a melee ranger.
Concentrating damage is also better than spreading it.
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Useful if you're lacking a Warlord, but about the only time it will matter is against an Elite or Solo. As a striker, you should be dropping a single target of your level fairly quick if you have combat advantage. Speaking of which...
Yeah, this is total Solo bait.
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The opportunity to do [2W] damage plus a blind to several targets is a no-brainer, especially since blinded targets grants combat advantage and imposes a strong penalty to hit. I'd up this to an A-. Even a wizard's sleep spell only slows targets in the first turn of its effect. AoE Blind is amazing control for a striker.
So, I had it A- and moved it down (along with some other powers like Beacon and Guardian). One reason is that it really is a pretty small area and the blind only lasts 1 round and blind isn't necessarily more powerful than, say, Daze (which makes this comparable to Color Spray)
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I agree with you for the most part. Armor of Agathys is even better if the warlock has Wintertouched...being able to gain combat advantage for an entire encounter in addition to bonus damage is quite nice.
Yeah.
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Like my comment on Paladin's Judgement, this is basically a Brute Strike that trades the reliable keyword for guaranteed temporary HP for your allies (but not you, unfortunately).
And hey, +1 to all defenses is still cool
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One of the best effects in the game, though it is vital to have someone else who can impose an AC penalty on the target and/or a hit bonus on you before using this power. Any Tactical Warlord who skips this power is a fool.
Yeah - does this one even get dropped by level 30? I'm least familiar with the Warlord powers I'll admit.
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Again, Brute Strike that trades reliable for a different effect. Useful, but against a solo I'm not too worried about shifts (as most solos have reach or other special abilities to help them attack without taking an OA), and I'm not keen on blowing a daily versus an ordinary foe. Which pretty much relegates its usefulness to elites, and many elites are perfectly happy to stand still and beat you to death.
So, I was thinking explicitly of this being used against a Solo to maintain combat advantage, exposure to zones & conjurations, or trigger OAs. Why would it only be useful against elites?
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In general, I find that the ability to give a single ally a slide (without being near him) multiple times per combat trumps the ability to prevent a single foe from shifting. It has many useful applications, from flanking tough creatures to moving away after unleashing a point-blank power (yes, the wizard can use this after using a close blast or burst, to move out of harm's way). Should definitely be upgraded to a B...anyone with AoE attacks can trigger this easily due to multiple attack rolls.
Except anyone with AoE attacks is unlikely to be standing adjacent to an ally he wants to slide, honestly.
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It's good damage if you can make the attack rolls, but harder to place it so it hits several enemies without hitting an ally.
Agreed.
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I consider this the best power of the bunch, as it can last for a full encounter and doesn't worry about an enemy rolling well on a save. A solid A in my book.
Yeah, Flaming Sphere is my favorite - that said it does eat up a bunch of actions and can hit allies potentially so it's not quite as convenient as Guardian of Faith. Better damage (except against undead) though.
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It functions mainly as area denial, but doesn't do automatic damage (which means minions who avoid getting hit can walk right through it). It also targets Fortitude, which is generally the highest of the non-AC defenses. Decent area, but Flaming Sphere is MUCH more useful. I'd rate it a C+.
Two chances to hit minions at least
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To be clear, the affected creatures will get an action before they make their first save, so it takes a bit of time to knock foes out. It's wonderful for Orb specialists, less so for other types of wizards (55% chance for normal foes to avoid unconsciousness, more for elites and solos). It's a power you want to use early in a fight, rather than when you're down to single-digit HP...you may be dead before they fall unconscious. Because of that, I can't give it an A+...though it is definitely an A for the right build.
The problem roughly is that at the moment it's potentially broken good, but I wouldn't recommend it for people for a variety of reasons. That said, I can't discount the opinions of those who think it's the most effective wizard daily until 29. Which is automatic A+ treatment.
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One interpretation is that you can't stand up until the end of the next turn if you're hit by the power...mainly due to bad wording in the power (could use a comma after prone). More damage than Freezing Cloud, has two secondary effects (prone and immobilize), has a longer range, and targets Will. What's not to like?
I don't see any language to suggest that interpretation, though it's possible that might be intended. It would definitely be a stronger power if it had a 'and target cannot stand'. Much less damage than Freezing Cloud - (at least) 2 attacks vs 1, Half damage on miss vs none. I missed the range, though.
I do like it second best, though. My wizard will have Chasm and Sphere assuming Chasm is allowed.
Cleric:
Beacon of Hope is a clear A to me. Maybe not an A+ because it doesn't scale so well, but for its level, it's fantastic. Healer's Lore makes clerics slightly better healers than Warlords. Beacon of Hope makes them way better healers than Warlords.
Fighter:
I would put Come Back Strike up a knotch or two. Healing surges are useful at every level, B+.
Paladin:
I'm good with that line up.
Ranger:
Jaws of the Wolf is a little better than the rest, but not that much better than the rest. It misses a good bit more than say Split the Tree. I'd put Split the Tree up a knotch. I've played an elf ranger with this power, and using stealth (or party help) for CA and elven accuracy, I could nail anything with this power.
Rogue:
I would up Blinding Barrage to an A-. I'd carry around a stack of Shurikens just for this attack. I want to point out it only targets enemies, so the blast 3 is very handy, and you'll be very glad you have this as a rogue if you're facing swarms.
Warlock:
We have some disagreements on this one. I put Armor of Agathis at the bottom of the pile, with the caveat, it's only useful for Warlocks who don't have other means of gaining temporary hit points. The warlock's job is to be the Striker, a daily power that does a little bit of damage is not very impressive. While not as reliable, all the 3dx damage powers are more appealing to me, since they takes targets down fast.
I would rate Curse of the Dark Dream a B, because it's just about as good as Pin the Foe. I also like Flames of Phlegethos a bit better than Dread Star, because it does a lot more damage, and as a Warlock, I like damage, I'd give it a B-, or at worst a C+.
Warlord:
Bastion of Defense is the clear winner for me. It's another A power. I might overvalue temporary HP's but as a player, it just lets you take greater risks for greater gain when you have a nice buffer like that. Lead te attack is not an A+ for me. It's great against solos, but other than that, if everyone concentrates their attacks on one target, bonus plusses or not, that target is going down anyway. But because it's so good against a solo, I could understand keeping it an A-.
Wizard:
I would value Flaming Sphere above Sleep. The others are about the same. I don't think Acid Arrow is so bad, though when playing a wizard with both Acid Arrow and Sleep, I just about never memorized Acid Arrow.
Good news, there are no D's or F's among daily powers. Bad news, there are a couple A's that can overshadow other powers. We will see more of this when we look at level 5 Dailies.
__________________ Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
Rogue:
I would up Blinding Barrage to an A-. I'd carry around a stack of Shurikens just for this attack. I want to point out it only targets enemies, so the blast 3 is very handy, and you'll be very glad you have this as a rogue if you're facing swarms.
One thing that might keep this down to a B+ is that you can't use your main weapon on the attack (unless you're a primarily ranged rogue). This means you don't get the magical enhancement bonus or damage from weapon focus or any other nifty bonuses that may be on your main weapon. This is more of a minor point than anything but I think it prevents BB from being a true A class power.
If you don't have a magic weapon, though, you need Quickdraw to attack more than two targets, and that assumes you fling the weapons in both hands.
Why? Under light thrown weapon description it specifically says some powers let you hurl several of these weapons at once or in rapid succession.
I would certainly permit a rogue to draw a stack of throwing daggers and toss them in rapid succession, or draw a stack of shurikens and toss them all at once. Of course drawing the stack would be a minor action without quickdraw, but I don't see why quickdraw would be needed to use the power effectively.
__________________ Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
It's vulnerability 5 (the cleric who cast it), not radiant. Radiant would certainly make it cooler
Whoops! That'll teach me to actually grab the book to double-check the power before I post...
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I'll upgrade it, though having run those numbers. My gut instinct was to do so, but I tried to avoid giving out too many A powers other than a couple obvious ones.
I understand the reluctance to have too many A powers, but this one really is that good.
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Better in the paladin's square Or the monster's square while threatened by the fighter.
Depends on what god you worship...
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You can retrain at any level so it doesn't really matter what you get at 5th and 9th for this equation. It's more of a 'do you want to do a d10 or get a healing surge' and I suspect the answer depends on how much healing via team mates the fighter has available.
It also depends on how you see your role. A maul fighter trying to imitate a striker will love Brute Strike, while a sword-and-board defender will probably go for the healing instead.
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If you have a cleric using Righteous Brand, you probably won't get that hit bonus half the time
Righteous Brand helps one ally, and the cleric should be helping the strikers, not the defender (unless you're a maul fighter, in which case you'll probably take Brute Strike.
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3W is the standard damage for Dailies... I don't think comparing it to Reliable helps that much
The first level daily powers actually are [2W] with a bonus effect - Brute Strike gets [3W] because there is no other effect.
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Hmm, maybe. I think I'm going to take a step back and look at all of the possible A candidates tomorrow and make sure it's clear what might be eligible.
Sounds good. My take is that an +4 to hit by everyone for a turn, in addition to an effective [3W] damage, is absolutely amazing.
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It's not a single player game. Slow rarely lets stops a foe from engaging _someone_. Agree on the 'if it hits', but it doesn't halve if it doesn't so it's no better than 3W I figured and I rate slow really low.
Take a look at Prime Shot - the ranger gets the bonus if he's the closest to the target. If you're the closest character to the target, and not in range for an OA, then chances are the slow effect will keep that foe from engaging someone.
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I've seen it not used at all 3 times, miss completely one time, and used wastefully (on guys that a daily was overkill on) once. Color me unimpressed. I do agree it's the best archer choice, but that doesn't make me think it's _good_
Then you've watched people with bad dice luck, or who waited too long to bring it out. It can miss completely, but the odds aren't very high if you're optimized for ranged combat and taking advantage of Prime Shot. And since you take the better roll, it either misses completely or hits perfectly. The damage is strong enough to put a serious dent in normal monsters, but not enough to be overkill on a fresh monster (besides minions, of course).
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Elites and Solos really don't do that much damage, Weaken is cool, but it's not powerful. If this had a Miss 'Half damage' line I would rate this decently though since a little over 3W + Weaken is definitely on par with the Baseline.
A young white dragon (level 3 solo brute) can drop a 1st level character in one round with three successful (non-crit) attack rolls. 2 claws plus bite average out to 29 hp, which goes up with good damage rolls or a crit on one of the attacks. I fail to see how solos "really don't do that much damage".
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So, I was thinking explicitly of this being used against a Solo to maintain combat advantage, exposure to zones & conjurations, or trigger OAs. Why would it only be useful against elites?
The majority of solos are dragons, who have reach and dragon breath. They don't need to shift.
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Except anyone with AoE attacks is unlikely to be standing adjacent to an ally he wants to slide, honestly.
Close blast and close burst.
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Yeah, Flaming Sphere is my favorite - that said it does eat up a bunch of actions and can hit allies potentially so it's not quite as convenient as Guardian of Faith. Better damage (except against undead) though.
While it can hit allies, you choose where you move it. As long as the party is working well together, this shouldn't be an issue.
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I don't see any language to suggest that interpretation, though it's possible that might be intended.
It depends on whether you read it as "prone and immobilized, until its next turn" or "prone, and immobilized until its next turn".
It also depends on how you see your role. A maul fighter trying to imitate a striker will love Brute Strike, while a sword-and-board defender will probably go for the healing instead.
Oh, sure - but back to the assumption that the powers are being used by those they're intended for
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Righteous Brand helps one ally, and the cleric should be helping the strikers, not the defender (unless you're a maul fighter, in which case you'll probably take Brute Strike.
If there's a melee striker, true 'nough.
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The first level daily powers actually are [2W] with a bonus effect - Brute Strike gets [3W] because there is no other effect.
You might want to doublecheck - there are more 3Ws (or equivalent, or better) than 2Ws
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Take a look at Prime Shot - the ranger gets the bonus if he's the closest to the target. If you're the closest character to the target, and not in range for an OA, then chances are the slow effect will keep that foe from engaging someone.
*shrug* Assumes the mob isn't able to do appreciable ranged and is more than 6 from a target. That's an underwhelming selection of events in my experience, and even if the Ranger kicks it off first round of the combat when folks are at max range it may excessively limit the melee PCs to avoid getting within range of the target. I'm willing to concede I might be underrating it, but slow gets pretty picked on (with good reason) as an effect type.
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Then you've watched people with bad dice luck, or who waited too long to bring it out. It can miss completely, but the odds aren't very high if you're optimized for ranged combat and taking advantage of Prime Shot. And since you take the better roll, it either misses completely or hits perfectly. The damage is strong enough to put a serious dent in normal monsters, but not enough to be overkill on a fresh monster (besides minions, of course).
For example, in Scalegloom Hall, a good use for it never came up. It was never particularly needed in any of the early fights, the wyrmpriest was nowhere near enough to anyone else, and the dragon was alone. In a moathouse adventure it wasn't used on the relatively easy fight outside and the tough fight inside people were too spread out.
The person who missed I think rolled like a 7 and 8... it happens.
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A young white dragon (level 3 solo brute) can drop a 1st level character in one round with three successful (non-crit) attack rolls. 2 claws plus bite average out to 29 hp, which goes up with good damage rolls or a crit on one of the attacks. I fail to see how solos "really don't do that much damage".
Said white dragon has +6 to AC. If he's shooting for AC 17, he has a 50% chance of hitting. He has to hit with both attacks (25% chance) in order to trigger the bite, for its own 50% chance... so there is a 1 in 8 chance it'll do that much, yep. And he's one of the hardest hitting solos. On average, a weaken on him will prevent about 5 damage. Woo.
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The majority of solos are dragons, who have reach and dragon breath. They don't need to shift.
What do reach and dragon breath have to do with avoiding zones, conjurations, and flank? Or anything at all to do with shifting, for that matter?
It is true that dragon's breath is far less useful if you can't line it up on multiple targets and shifting is one of the easy ways to slowly line those up as you recharge... but I don't think it matters as much for this discussion.
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While it can hit allies, you choose where you move it. As long as the party is working well together, this shouldn't be an issue.
Depends what you're fighting. If you're fighting non-Large opponents it often cuts off flank, which could matter quite a bit to the rogue.
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It depends on whether you read it as "prone and immobilized, until its next turn" or "prone, and immobilized until its next turn".
I don't believe it does. The default duration of prone is 'Forever'. It's "cured" by standing. Prone until next turn doesn't prevent standing anymore than being poisoned prevents using ointment to remove it.
*shrug* Assumes the mob isn't able to do appreciable ranged and is more than 6 from a target. That's an underwhelming selection of events in my experience, and even if the Ranger kicks it off first round of the combat when folks are at max range it may excessively limit the melee PCs to avoid getting within range of the target. I'm willing to concede I might be underrating it, but slow gets pretty picked on (with good reason) as an effect type.
You cannot run while slowed. (Well, you can, but you cannot increase your speed above two), so the limit is more than 4 from a target.
I've seen split the tree be an encounter winner with a stealthy elven bow ranger. It's far better than you are giving it credit for, if you just do the odds on an objective basis. Heck, ANY two-attack powers are better than you seem to be grading them.
Just because the folks you have seen use it had bad luck doesn't mean those times were representative of the power.
I've seen split the tree be an encounter winner with a stealthy elven bow ranger. It's far better than you are giving it credit for, if you just do the odds on an objective basis. Heck, ANY two-attack powers are better than you seem to be grading them.
Just because the folks you have seen use it had bad luck doesn't mean those times were representative of the power.
I think two-attack powers are quite good. I mean, I like all forms of 'AoE' and it's just a very selective AoE (Burst 1, enemies only, max 2 targets)
In fact, if Split the Tree could be used at all on a single target and did half damage on Miss I'd find it top notch.
I just don't find it much of an improvement over, say, Two-Fanged Strike (Encounter 1). At 60% hit chance and (1 or 2)d10 + 8 damage (~6th level) with +1d8 hunter's mark, TFS nets 19 damage to a single target and Split the Tree nets 21.5 to a single target and 17.8 to a second, which is totally respectable, but it's also a daily and you often just _can't use it_ (or shouldn't, minions) cause of target restrictions. It's no Blinding Barrage. I personally find it closer to Acid Arrow. But eh, I may be in the minority there
Anyhow, I'll obviously increase it since I'm underscoring it but I'm having serious difficulty comparing it to any of the higher scored ones.
Making another pass through all of them now with folks' recommendations.
Last edited by keterys; 10th July 2008 at 07:50 AM..
The main reason I like it is because it reduces miss chance from
60% to 36%
50% to 25%
40% to 16%
So it's approximately a +5 to hit for the AC ranges that matter. There aren't very many daily powers that let you hit two targets with Stat+5 vs AC, doing 2[W]+Stat damage. It is totally in line with the Ranger's role of dealing fast and high damage. A hidden benefit is that this attack has a 9.75% crit chance on *two* targets.
Maybe it's not an A power due to a lack of effects, but it's definitely somewhere in the B range.
__________________ Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
Yep, that's where I put it. I'm going to get started on daily 5s today, but if I don't get enough time to finish today I probably won't get it in for a couple days (I run D&D the next two nights and I'm busy during the day). Just a warning.
Usual complaints, you can't compare easily between classes and roles, a controller-like power given to a defender is worth more than Yet Another Fireball given to a Wizard, etc.
Cascade of Light- gives single target damage to a class that mostly lacks it, and can add up to quite a lot of damage if the same is failed. Worth at least a B. You can get some extra damage with some damaging zone powers, but that doesn't really factor into my final decision that much because it usually requires multiple dailies to be fired off at once.
Brute Strike- Worth at least a B-. Everyone laughs at it because its just 3[W]+Str with Reliable, and that seems like its half as much of a Daily as other classes which usually get 3[W]+Stat and an added effect. But, consider who's using it. Fighter's [W]s tend to be much bigger than everyone elses. With a maul, this power does 6d6+str damage at level 1.
Split the Tree- this is where your "grade down if no Miss: Half or Reliable" rule starts to fall through. Some powers haven't got a Miss: Half or a Reliable entry, but usually they have some other effect to help assure their accuracy. In this case, Split the Tree gives you two attack rolls, and you pick the better of the two. This is a very significant increase in accuracy. Against a target that is hit on a 11+, you get the same overall expected damage as you would from a power which read, "4[W]+dex+dex, Miss: Half." The damage is spread around a little, which lessens the knock out effects, but the overall damage is basically the highest available of any level 1 daily power in the game (except for wizards with tightly packed foes). I'd give this an A.
Hunter's Bear Trap- not that great, but not bad for an archery Ranger. Ongoing 5 is worth as much as an extra W, guaranteed, and sometimes is worth more. Would you rate this as poorly if it read, "3[W]+Dex, target is slowed, save ends, Miss: Half damage?" Because that's actually worse.
Easy Target- awkward power. Its almost better to miss with it in order to guarantee yourself a second round of combat advantage, instead of relying on the target to save. I'd rate it even more poorly just because of that annoyance.
Armor of Agathys- Good, but it requires you to go into melee reach of your foes with a class that isn't cut out for that. And the Infernal warlock, the one most likely to not mind, already has enough non stacking temporary hit points not to get excited. I'd just give it a B.
Dread Star- compatible with the Star pact paragon path (and very little is). Probably worth a B.
Curse of the Dark Dream- sliding enemies is just so darn useful. I'd give it a B.
Flames of Phlegethos- Total damage is very high on a hit. On a miss, it does minor damage. Worth at least a B.
Or the monster's square while threatened by the fighter.
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