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D&D 4th Edition RulesAsk questions about 4th-Edition rules and the like in here. General discussion about 4E or any other game belongs in General RPG Discussion, above.
I've read it several times and just can't wrap my head around it. It seems to me that you have to be a in "state" of Rage, of which, only the daily powers of the Barbarian is considered Rage. But it also states you have to have at least 1 Rage power unused, which would mean that you couldn't Rage until level 5 as that is the soonest you get a 2nd daily power.
How does one use the Barbarian Rage class feature? Can someone supply an example? Maybe I just read it wrong...
__________________ It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on him not understanding it -Upton Sinclair
Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand. -Albert Einstein
Alignment is what you are when no one is watching. -Yakoska, fellow D&D player.
I think you're interpreting it correctly. And I agree, it is a bit of a clunky mechanic.
First, you use a Barbarian daily power to go into a rage. Then, while you're raging, you have the option of spending another Barbarian daily power to do a large amount of damage.
You use a Daily power to Rage, which lasts the rest of the encounter. Then, while you are Raging you can use the Raging Strike (or whatever it's called) at the cost of an unused Daily Rage power.
So you can't use Raging Strike until lvl 5 unless you have an item (such as Veteran's Armor) that allows you to regain a daily power.
From the discussion thread on this, it seems that this is to allow the barbarian to make use of his extra Daily powers without having to end his current Rage. Other classes can use multiple daily powers in a single combat if they feel the need, but a barbarian can't do it without ending the benefits of his current Rage Daily - thus the Raging Strike is really a "generic" Daily power that you can convert your remaining Daily powers into while you are Raging.
Yes the barb enters in a rage via his dailies. Rage is like stances in that they last for the encounter, until you drop it, or use another daily. It is the second condition that rage strike is a work around for. Otherwise in a major battle where all other characters can drop their second or third dailies for extra oophm, the barb's dailies would overwrite each other decreasing their impact especially if one rage effect is very effective for the fight (the frost one versus a red dragon for example). so rage strike exists so the barb can duplicate all other class's ability to nova in a fight without giving up desiable rage conditions.
I'll give an example:
lets say you have this rage,
level 1 rage:
Mad Dog rage:
str VS AC
hit: 3W+str
miss: half damage
effect: you enter the mad dog rage, you gain +1 fort.
so when bob the barbarian is in a fight against a bunch of goblins and he wants to enter his rage, he uses the daily power 'Mad dog rage' and makes the srt vs AC attack against an enemy. Hit or Miss, he then enters the rage until the end of the encounter, ie he gets the +1 to fort. His is considered raging for all powers and abilities that key off of raging. This rage lasts until the encounter is over, he enters a different rage, he drops below 0 hp, etc.
lets say he has another rage:
level 5 rage:
Angry cat rage
str VS AC
hit: 3W+str
miss: half damage
effect: you enter the angry cat rage, you gain +2 damage.
Now if Bob the barbarian is in his mad dog rage and wants to use his level 5 rage he has two options.
1) use the level 5 power as normal: he makes an attack for 3W+str, and then gains the +2 damage, but loses the +1 fort. he is still considered raging, but its now the angry cat rage.
2)He can use up the level 5 power with rage strike and deal 4W+str damage, but keep his +1 to fort and not gain the +2 damage. He is still considered raging and its still the mad dog rage.
It just seems strange that they would give you a class feature that you have to wait until level 5 to actually use, or rely on a magic item to use (which the designers specifically said they were trying to get away from people designing characters based around magic items). Class features should be useable and viable from level 1 IMHO.
I would definately make Rage work differently...
Rage
You fly into a furious rage, wreaking havoc upon your foes.
Encounter (Special) ✦ Primal, Rage
Special: You can use this power a number of times per day
equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum 1), but only once
per encounter.
Minor Action
Target: Self
Duration: Rage lasts a number of rounds equal to your Constitution modifier or until you fall unconcious. After Rage ends, you become Slowed until you take a short rest.
Effect: You deal an extra 2 damage with melee attacks as long as you are in a Rage. This raises to 4 extra damage at level 11, and 6 extra damage at level 21.
Effect: You gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier.
Then certain powers will work better if you are under the effects of Rage.
__________________ It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on him not understanding it -Upton Sinclair
Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand. -Albert Einstein
Alignment is what you are when no one is watching. -Yakoska, fellow D&D player.
It just seems strange that they would give you a class feature that you have to wait until level 5 to actually use
You can rage at level 1... You just can't use Rage Strike (which is pretty weak compared to most dailys) until level 5. Don't think of Rage Strike as a class feature. Think of it more as a way to waste a daily power that you'd never want to use.
Besides, I'm sure there's bound to be a feat that lets you use Rage Strike x times per day/encounter without using up a daily power.
It just seems strange that they would give you a class feature that you have to wait until level 5 to actually use, or rely on a magic item to use (which the designers specifically said they were trying to get away from people designing characters based around magic items). Class features should be useable and viable from level 1 IMHO.
The only reason barbarians have this feature is because of a problem that doesn't start until level 5, namely rages don't stack, so being in a rage kind of limits your ability to use other dailies. This is a problem no other class has (so far) so this is the first time we've seen delayed gratification from a class feature, but there is no reason to feel scared. Rage strike is definitely NOT a focus of the class, its a minor feature that fixes what would otherwise be an annoying problem. It ONLY EXISTS because of the way they decided to do rage (well, thats my guess anyway), and i like the way they do rage, but it creates a situation where a barabarian doesn't really want to use more than one daily per encounter. Rage strike fixes this. Thats its whole point, and the only reason its there.
Bottom line: Not getting it until level 5 is irrelevant to the way the class plays up until that point. Its not like if a paladin couldn't use his divine challenge until level 5. that would be bad, and effect his tactics. This is like not being able to use a secound daily until level 5. This is how it works for everyone, and this is how it should be.
This new ability is interesting, but I wonder if it starts to have the old "15 minute adventuring day" creep back in.
Deliberately bringing in an ability that encourages using more than one daily power in a battle seems a little sketchy to me.
--Steve
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--I:2 .
You can rage at level 1... You just can't use Rage Strike (which is pretty weak compared to most dailys) until level 5.
Ok, so what does Rage do by itself that makes it worth having as opposed to Rage Strike?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruns
Don't think of Rage Strike as a class feature. Think of it more as a way to waste a daily power that you'd never want to use.
Why would I ever choose a daily power that I never planned on using in the first place?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruns
Besides, I'm sure there's bound to be a feat that lets you use Rage Strike x times per day/encounter without using up a daily power.
Later!
Gruns
Lets hope so!
__________________ It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on him not understanding it -Upton Sinclair
Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand. -Albert Einstein
Alignment is what you are when no one is watching. -Yakoska, fellow D&D player.
It isn't actually encouraging you to blow through you're dailies. A Fighter is perfectly able to blow through all of his dailies in one encounter, and will get the full benefit of every single one of them. Its up to the players self control to keep him from doing this. How is a barbarian, even with this ability, any different? He's not. He won't burn through his dailies all at once for the same reason the fighter won't. He just has a different option to use should he decide to blow through them.
In fact, i believe that the barbarian has less reason, even with rage strike, to "go nova" than other classes. For a barbarian, every daily has a cool ability associated with the rage, and sometimes the damage is speacial too (fire, cold, ongoing, etc.). Using Rage strike turns these neat powers into boring, pure damage. You trade an entire future encounters worth of rage for one moment of damage You aren't going to want to do this often. Certainly you shouldn't "just because you can".
Rage strike is there as an option, but its not supposed to be your first choice. Its for emergencies or just the right time, like all dailies are. If players start burning through their dailies "just because they can" its not because of bad design.
EDIT: it not for wasting dailies you'd "never" use, its for using dailies you don't need that moment/day, or feel like you can spare. its a trade, and one that should be made using some amount of thought.
the only reason barbarians have this feature is because of a problem that doesn't start until level 5, namely rages don't stack, so being in a rage kind of limits your ability to use other dailies. This is a problem no other class has (so far) so this is the first time we've seen delayed gratification from a class feature, but there is no reason to feel scared. rage strike is definitely not a focus of the class, its a minor feature that fixes what would otherwise be an annoying problem. It only exists because of the way they decided to do rage (well, thats my guess anyway), and i like the way they do rage, but it creates a situation where a barabarian doesn't really want to use more than one daily per encounter. Rage strike fixes this. Thats its whole point, and the only reason its there.
Bottom line: Not getting it until level 5 is irrelevant to the way the class plays up until that point. Its not like if a paladin couldn't use his divine challenge until level 5. That would be bad, and effect his tactics. This is like not being able to use a secound daily until level 5. This is how it works for everyone, and this is how it should be.
This new ability is interesting, but I wonder if it starts to have the old "15 minute adventuring day" creep back in.
Deliberately bringing in an ability that encourages using more than one daily power in a battle seems a little sketchy to me.
That's the thing, it does not encourage novaing any more than having more than one daily encourages you to burn them all in a fight. In fact without it the barbarian would be the only class so far that would be actually discouraged to use multiple dailies in a fight because they do not stack, and the effect of the second rage could be less effective than the first.
The true problem with rage strike is in its presentation. All other classes so far have had their first class feature be their thing to do their role. rogue's sneak attack, paladin's divine challenge etc. Here its just a stopgap to circumvent a limitation in the rage mechanic.
The other way would be to add a "Special: If you are already in a rage you can expend this for X[W] +str attack versus AC" for every single daily.
But the other strikers in the PHB have "extra damage" they can deal that do not expend any resources (Rogue's sneak attack, Ranger's Hunter's Quarry, and Warlock's curse), let alone cost that precious daily ability. If they wanted Barbarians to be a striker class, shouldn't they have a similiar mechanic? Perhaps there is an At-Will that I missed which generates the extra damage strikers are supposed to have.
__________________ It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on him not understanding it -Upton Sinclair
Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand. -Albert Einstein
Alignment is what you are when no one is watching. -Yakoska, fellow D&D player.
Ok, so what does Rage do by itself that makes it worth having as opposed to Rage Strike?
Why would I ever choose a daily power that I never planned on using in the first place?
Lets hope so!
- persistent status based damage / effects dependent on rage
- conditional effects to at -wills and encounter power (howling strike can be used on a charge, charging and using howling strike while raging doesn't provoke OAs)
But the other strikers in the PHB have "extra damage" they can deal that do not expend any resources (Rogue's sneak attack, Ranger's Hunter's Quarry, and Warlock's curse), let alone cost that precious daily ability. If they wanted Barbarians to be a striker class, shouldn't they have a similiar mechanic? Perhaps there is an At-Will that I missed which generates the extra damage strikers are supposed to have.
I see the at-will Howling Strike:
Hit: 1[W] + 1d6 + STR MOD.
This means NO situational requirements, you just do extra damage with it.
Odd though that it's the only at will to add damage, I'm suspect you would always choose Howling Strike + 1 other.
Last edited by the8bitdeity; 7th October 2008 at 11:35 PM..
Reason: tone
Barbarian's striker abilites:
free attacks after crits.
free charge after dropping targets
Very beefy at wills. howling strike as above. Another allows you to shift 2 and then push the target. Its like tide of iron and the rogue's hit and run at wills had a kid of awesome. the third gives you temp HP. more staying power=more smashing face power.
But the other strikers in the PHB have "extra damage" they can deal that do not expend any resources (Rogue's sneak attack, Ranger's Hunter's Quarry, and Warlock's curse), let alone cost that precious daily ability. If they wanted Barbarians to be a striker class, shouldn't they have a similiar mechanic? Perhaps there is an At-Will that I missed which generates the extra damage strikers are supposed to have.
The at will and encounter powers of the barbarian do more damage than other strikers. Partly because they're just better (ie - he gets a first level encounter that does 3[w], compared to the 2[w] the other strikers max out at. He gets an at-will that causes an extra 1d6 damage.) and partly because he has a big two hander supplying his [w] (so at first level, he can bust out a 6d6 hit every encounter, or make do with 3d6 attacks at will - equal to the rogue pre-feat).
Incidentally - his at-wills are probably the best in the entire game at what they do, by a long shot. We have one that gains an extra 1d6 damage per tier, one that lets you shift 2 squares (take that deft strike!) and then knock the foe back on a hit (and tide of iron!), and one that gives temp hitpoints equal to an already powerful stat.
Personally I don't think this is a particularly good way of doing things: it means that it's incredibly advantageous for other classes to pick up barbarian powers instead of their own. I'd expect that paragon multiclassing is going to become popular purely due to the power of barbarian abilities.
Last edited by Saeviomagy; 8th October 2008 at 12:55 AM..
Yes he has an Encounter power that does 3[w] damage. However it also gives any attack against you a +4 bonus to hit you. I don't exactly call that 'better'.
Rage strike is definitely NOT a focus of the class, its a minor feature that fixes what would otherwise be an annoying problem. It ONLY EXISTS because of the way they decided to do rage (well, thats my guess anyway), and i like the way they do rage, but it creates a situation where a barabarian doesn't really want to use more than one daily per encounter. Rage strike fixes this. Thats its whole point, and the only reason its there.
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