Battlerager....Overpowered?

[Stalker0]

There's enough talk about this on the boards now its time to get it out in the open!

Fighters have a new battlerager option at the cost of their +1 to attack rolls. Overall, is it overpowered?

For a con heavy fighter, I think it is definitely the stronger option. Even with a 16 con, you are getting virtual DR 3 (that stacks with DR) on every attack. While it doesn't stack with most temp hp (except for invigorating) in general I think this gives the fighter a huge increase in staying power, especially when combined with powers that provide regen.

However, I don't know if its necessarily the most fun option. +1 to attack rolls means more attacks land, more conditions applied, and damage is always fun. No one likes missing with their attacks. In that regard, its a question of how much enjoyment a player gets from the heavier defense over offense.

But mechanically....I think it is the optimized way to go for a con fighter.

 

[Saeviomagy]

The "your invigorating powers stack with all temp hitpoints" is almost worth it on it's own. Getting free temp hitpoints every time you're attacked as well is crazily good. I think it's the way to go for any fighter, regardless of his con.

Which makes it overpowered in my book.

 

[Orcus Porkus]

Keeping track of Temp HP is already a challenge with my Barbarian.
I can't imagine to have to seperate Temp HP's that stack or don't stack on top of it. You can as well not track HP at all and just don't die ever.

 

[James McMurray]

You don't track temp hp seperately. When you gain temp hp, if you already have some and the new ones aren't invigorating, use the highest number. If the new ones are invigorating, add them together.

 

[Plane Sailing]

If I allow this at all, I'm certainly going to start from the point of "no temp hit points ever stack. Ever".

It just seems the only sane starting point when dealing with temp hit points anyway, and without that proviso I could see invigorating battleragers (or whatever comes next) just running into stupid hp-land - much as infernal warlocks were when the players didn't read their temp hp carefully enough.

Cheers

 

[Piratecat]

If I allow this at all, I'm certainly going to start from the point of "no temp hit points ever stack. Ever".

It just seems the only sane starting point when dealing with temp hit points anyway, and without that proviso I could see invigorating battleragers (or whatever comes next) just running into stupid hp-land - much as infernal warlocks were when the players didn't read their temp hp carefully enough.

Cheers

Next time you visit, I'll make you play one and we'll see.

 

[James McMurray]

It just seems the only sane starting point when dealing with temp hit points anyway, and without that proviso I could see invigorating battleragers (or whatever comes next) just running into stupid hp-land -

How so? Is there a power combination you see that causes this, or just a feeling? The invigorating tag itself only applies once per turn, and the hit points they get for being attacked don't stack with anything else. There are no invigorating powers that grant temporary hit points beyond the base amount, so you're at most getting your Con per round, plus a little more if you don't have any after someone's attack.

With feats you could get Con + 5 with your invigorating powers, but that doesn't seem like "stupid hp-land." Is there a combo I'm missing?

 

[Solodan]

Its only stupid HP land if we're at low levels being swarmed by minions. Otherwise, I'd say a shielding swordmage is better than battlerager about half the time.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

First of all, figters get hit. A lot. Marking monsters to encourage them to target you does that. So you don't get to stack those HP all that often since every round you get hit resets the counter to zero. A non-battlerager fighter who uses invigorating powers will get about 80% as much out of them as a battlerager. The only way you can stack crazy HP is if you aren't getting hit for several consecutive round, keep using Invigorating Powers even when better options are available and hit most of the time. But if you aren't getting hit, what do you need the HP for?

Note that using a chainmail and losing the +1 to hit tend to make the HP stacking harder in the first place since you'll get hit more and hit less.

Secondly, invigorating powers aren't always the best option, even if you factor in the temp HP. What fighter faced by two monsters, including one minion, would rather use Crushing Surge than Cleave? And are you seriously going to select only dailies and encounter powers with the Invogorating power? 'Cause many of them aren't very good. I'm never selecting Pinning Smash over ain of Steel, for example. So even a battle rager won't use invigorating powers every round.

Also, most invigorating powers are better with axes and hammers. If you take those, you are 2 points behind my bastard sword fighter. But if you don't, many of these invigorating powers are seriously subpar...

 

[Rechan]

1) You go through temp hp fast.

2) Battlerager gives con mod temp HP. Being a fighter, he's going to have his highest stat in Str. Even if he's a Dwarf, he's only getting 3-4 temp HP back. And these temp HP don't stack.

3) Just like #2, the Invigorating keyword only gives Con Mod HP. Not only that, but it's only going to give temp HP once a round. So at most, he will have 10-12 temp HP a round. Considering the damage monsters should be doing when he has 10-12 hp around (around Paragon tier), it should be less of an issue.

4) The Battlerager is going to have light armor or chainmail in order to benefit from the +1 to attacks. Thus, he's going to get hit much more frequently. This in turn goes back to #1.

Ultimately, the Battlerager has the same problem as the Barbarian: he's going to make himself enough of a target that he's going to get pounded on, and with the limited AC, the enemies attacks are going to chew through his temp HP. Granted, he has more than the barbarian.