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In the General forum, when discussing the potency of the Invoker's At-Wills, Mearls stopped by and made this interesting comment:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mearls
When comparing at-wills for controllers, the wizard has some issues. His at-wills focus more on damage than control. The consensus is that controllers need a little more, well, control in their at-wills than we've handed out so far.
Vanguard's lightning is what I'd see as a baseline controller at-will, with scorching burst slightly *below* baseline. That little extra bit on vanguard's lightning is precisely the kind of thing that makes controllers go - they limit/mess up the enemy's plans.
Now, this may seem pretty annoying - WotC released stuff that was too weak! However, I think it's actually a strength of the meta systems of 4e. We've never before had the ability to so clearly compare classes/roles and, when necessary, make adjustments. It's a lot easier to listen to feedback, gather hard data, and make comparisons between powers when we have a unified power scale.
The interesting thing is that this issue really only rests in the at-wills. Encounter and daily powers are fine for the wizard.
The controller role is perhaps the one that took the longest to really develop. There's a reason why there's only one in the PH. For a long while, the role was defined by its ability to attack multiple foes. That definition never sat well, since it clearly steps on other roles and archetypes. We'd never want to prevent rangers from firing multiple arrows, or a fighter from striking everyone adjacent to him.
Over time, the controller definition morphed into the opposite of the leader. If the leader sets up his allies and encourages teamwork, the controller screws up his enemies and hinders their ability to work together. The area damage aspect of the controller does play into that (it makes bunching up a bad idea) but in practice controllers need a little more to embrace their role.
It's a subtle point, and in the grand scheme of things I don't think a PH 1 wizard is crippled compared to the PH 2 classes, but it is a sign of the subtle adjustments we're likely to make to the game going forward.
I thought this offered a lot of insights. Now, the key point is, how should the wizard at-wills be "powered up?" For Scorching Burst, I could see something like a lingering effect. So the wizard casts SB, rolling Int vs Ref as normal. However, until the beginning/end of the wizard's next turn, the SBs area is filled with little flame bursts and the like. If a creature tries to move to a new square, maybe the wizard makes another Int vs Ref attack, doing Int of half Int mod damage on a hit? For Magic Missile, maybe the creature hit takes a -1 to its next attack roll, until the end/beginning of the wizard's next turn? Anyway, I think it would be interesting to hear some ways to beef up the wizard at-wills.
EDIT - I just realized that my "fixes" for SB make it about as good or better than Cloud of Daggers! But I think the basic effort at trying to think up "rider effects" is still a worthwhile one.
Last edited by Jonathan Moyer; 16th December 2008 at 01:38 AM..
Hopefully that will see, if not errata (I don't want my lovely shiny books with writing in them) then much better at wills in Arcane Power that any Wiz can swap out for....as soon as they get the book IMC.
He seems to be saying it's about more than just damage.
For example, if you gave it a secondary attack vs. reflex, hit = target is pushed 1 away from the center of the burst, that would be more "controllery" than merely doing damage.
As the only ranged area effect at-will, scorching burst is pretty darn strong.
It may not be the epitome of the 'controller' power the designer hoped for, but I'm pretty damn sure scorching burst will not get an upgrade. We'll just see more 'disruptive' power in the upcoming offerings. And swcorching burst will still be a popular choice.
As the only ranged area effect at-will, scorching burst is pretty darn strong.
It may not be the epitome of the 'controller' power the designer hoped for, but I'm pretty damn sure scorching burst will not get an upgrade. We'll just see more 'disruptive' power in the upcoming offerings. And swcorching burst will still be a popular choice.
I think the reason for this post was the fact that Invokers get an at will that is identical to Scorching Burst except that it also has another effect on top. So people were complaining that it was way too powerful. To which Mike posted, "It's not too powerful, it's that Scorching Burst(and in fact, ALL the Wizard at-wills) are underpowered.
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Actually, this discussion makes me scratch my head. So, if scorching burst is weak, and Vanguard Lightning is strong, what does that make Flame Seed?
It does 1d6 (no +int) damage to a single target that you Must hit. Then, all adjacent squares to the target do Wisdom damage to enemies that start their turn in the square (or enter it).
That's certainly kinda powerful compared to Scorching Burst (effects enemies, does auto damage), but it's also requiring a hit on the original target, and only does 1d6 dmg to the initial target.
I thought this offered a lot of insights. Now, the key point is, how should the wizard at-wills be "powered up?" For Scorching Burst, I could see something like a lingering effect. So the wizard casts SB, rolling Int vs Ref as normal. However, until the beginning/end of the wizard's next turn, the SBs area is filled with little flame bursts and the like. If a creature tries to move to a new square, maybe the wizard makes another Int vs Ref attack, doing Int of half Int mod damage on a hit? For Magic Missile, maybe the creature hit takes a -1 to its next attack roll, until the end/beginning of the wizard's next turn? Anyway, I think it would be interesting to hear some ways to beef up the wizard at-wills.
EDIT - I just realized that my "fixes" for SB make it about as good or better than Cloud of Daggers! But I think the basic effort at trying to think up "rider effects" is still a worthwhile one.
The other thing to consider is if/when Arcane Power splat book comes out, I am sure that will have more controllerish At-Wills in it for the Wizard to pick up. That's the point of splat books after all, more options...
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The other thing to consider is if/when Arcane Power splat book comes out, I am sure that will have more controllerish At-Wills in it for the Wizard to pick up. That's the point of splat books after all, more options...
Indeed, but what about the old options? Should they just be forgotten? Martial Power didn't obviate the existing at-wills, so shouldn't the wizard's existing at-wills get an update?
Something else to consider is an article with feats that modify arcane at-wills in the same way the gladiator feats modified martial at-wills. Plenty of names of metamagic, general and reserve feats that apply to spellcasting that haven't been used to name stuff in 4e.
Another possibility is adding 2 or 3 more cantrips to to the wizards set of cantrips - with the bonus cantrips tied to which at-wills a character has. Either add another class feature all wizards get or make it a feat to enable the additional cantrips and add something like Cantrip Casting to the Ritual Casting and Alchemical Casting options. One cantrip assigned to each at-will and maybe a third cantrip based upon having a certain pair of at-wills.
There are also the various mastery wands that improve things various ways.
Magic missle's range is something it is unique. Thunderwave and Ray of Frost are solid controller type powers. Cloud of Daggers and Scorching Burst are probably the ones that are most in need of some sort of change, and Cloud of Daggers is probably ok, although it's mostly just extra damage ... having it be a "extra damage ... unless" type situation (i.e. anyone entering or leaving the square takes the damage).
For scorching burst, I could see it being "explosive" ... i.e. everyone is pushed/slid "out" of the blast radius although that might step on thunderwaves toes. Another option could be that the area hit by the scorching burst can do residual damage if someone moves through it without shifting (i.e. "kick up hot ash as they move through the blasted area before it's cooled").
Cloud of daggers would be fine, except that it is basically the druid's flame seed with a smaller radius.
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what is weird for me is I found the wizard at wills(at least in the context of the PH classes) solid to some of the best. But I found the per encounters which are apparently fine kind of weak. I rarely would see the need to use the encounter powers over the at will at low levels at least. The party has not got to high levels, so maybe it changes.
But take icy terrain, it what does basically flame burst damage, for flame burst area of effect, and barely hinders those in the area as an added bonus. The controllery side effects of wizard powers should hinder enemies as much as the leaders side effects help the party. And from what I've seen so far they don't. I skimmed the higher level stuff but never really looked at it, when the party levles up I'll read it closer but our wizard is a part time player so I probably ownt look to closely.
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Indeed, but what about the old options? Should they just be forgotten? Martial Power didn't obviate the existing at-wills, so shouldn't the wizard's existing at-wills get an update?
As Mearls pointed out, the PHB at wills are less controller focused, instead focusing on damage.
Thus, new At-Wills would be more controller focused, but not be as damage focused.
So if the wizard wants to do more damage, then go for it.
But take icy terrain, it what does basically flame burst damage, for flame burst area of effect, and barely hinders those in the area as an added bonus.
The knocked prone is potent, at least. Prone is a nice condition that wastes a move, and gives CA.
But I think the basic effort at trying to think up "rider effects" is still a worthwhile one.
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