How have you used terrain to make combat more tactically interesting & exciting?

[DrSpunj]

Forked from: How long are your 4e combats taking, real time?

Originally Posted by Nail

What's more of a problem - and I've yet to see any DM pull it off - is to *really* use terrain to make combat more tacticly interesting and exciting. 4e promised this, and yet all the combats I've seen (including those DMed by me) have been fairly standard toe-to-toe slug fests.

Since I got such an excellent response to my first forked thread I'll try another!

So what have people tried at their table (or seen as a player) that really worked well? What was dynamic, fun and really added a lot to make the combat more interesting?

Also, to try and improve everyones' games, what did you try but didn't work as well as you'd hoped and what did you learn from it?

Flipping through the encounters to date I've tried (with mixed but overall less than stellar results):

• Desert Ruins (from Skeleton Key Games) where the party was ambushed, some Goblin Sharpshooters & their Hexer were protected on nearby rooftops while the party was swarmed with Warriors, Cutters, a Skullcleaver & a Blackblade. The Sharpshooters could keep hiding & sniping which really frustrated the party until they'd cleaned up the melee mob though Readied actions were used by PCs at least a couple times to try and retaliate. The Hexer, too, was well protected until the Rogue scaled the wall and put some pressure on it, forcing it to flee.
• A large underground cavern where the party was at the bottom and had to climb up. Combat with ochre jellies & shadowhunter bats occurred before the party tackled the cliff which in hindsight was a waste of a much more dynamic fight
• A couple undead/crypt battles using WotC's Dungeon Tiles with sarcophagi, pillars, an altar and other trappings; all of them looked neat but only the pillars really played any role during combat and that only minimally. One battle had a Lightning Field which blocked the only entrance/exit for the room; it damaged & dazed creatures trying to move through it which really effectively split the party up and added a lot to the combat because of the dazed condition which was a bit heavy handed, it affected the combat more than I expected or wanted.
• A series of three interconnected caves with a stream running through the middle chamber (which caused at least 1 PC to fall prone!). More goblins with some fire beetles. Again in hindsight I think this could've been a lot more fun but I was still following the DMG guidelines & using "easy" encounters; but I don't think there were enough enemies moving around to make this battle worthwhile. A Doomspore hazard also made a showing.
• Another mausoleum with a pile of bones at the base of two stairways going up to a second level, then another stairway from there going up to a third level balcony. The bones created 3 waves of skeletal minions as 3 Blazing Skeletons fired down from the 2nd & 3rd levels while 3 Chillborn Zombies guarded the stairs. Here I think the Chillborn Zombies, as Soldiers, did their job a little too well as most all of the combat took place on the ground floor rather than up & down the stairs which is what I was hoping for.
• Another room with one of WotC's 8x8 tiles, it's the one with a ring of twelve 2x2 squares around the outside of the tile and a plain 4x4 square centered in the middle. The outside rim of all the 2x2 squares are lined with runes and I used a 4x4 rune tile in the middle as well. As a trap/hazard once each round (based on initiative) I rolled a d12 and any living creatures on that 2x2 square took some necrotic damage, so kind of a roulette thing. Anyone standing on the 4x4 rune in the middle would automatically take damage when I rolled the d12. The party was battling a team of constructs which could safely ignore it. This did add a dynamic item to the fight and I was pretty happy with it.
• Last session used the Desert Bluff tiles from SKG with the bluffs being 20' high, Climb DC 20. I put a Kruthik Controller (built on the Goblin Hexer's blinding ranged attack vs a single target) on top of a bluff and had the party ambushed & surrounded by Kruthik Adults, Young & Hatchlings. As Nail can surely attest, I did get the party out of their standard frontline/backline formation which threw them a bit off their game (periodically I believe that's A Good Thing (tm) ) but it largely ended up being a slugfest again at ground floor until most/all of the melee mobs were dead and the party felt like they could finally focus on the annoying Controller with the blinding spit up on the bluff. Taking a hint from the forked thread linked above I should have (& in the future plan on) just treating him as a minion at that point (dying on the next hit since the PCs were victorious).

While I've tried to throw some active environmental pieces in with most every combat most of them really haven't felt all that special or dynamic, not nearly as much as I'd hoped anyway. Any help is much appreciated!

Thanks

[Negflar2099]

I had the PCs fight a bunch of harpies on a bridge overlooking a massive drop but I was afraid to really use it for fear that the PCs would die (the fall was a little more than they could take at their level). I regret not using it more but it did limit the PCs to fighting at range and it did make the battle more interesting. If I could do it again I would really play up the dramatic aspects a lot more and even have a PC lured to fall off the side.

Other than that I haven't had anything.

[babinro]

I do not consider myself to be a good DM by any means considering what I've read from other people on these boards. But for 4E, I've been far more comfortable incorporating more action elements in the terrain. Namely incorporating traps in battles, or having pits/windows to push/fall through and more difficult terrain to allow for potential acrobatic stunts.

I found in 3E it was harder for me to track implement complex terrain..and since most characters simply stood in the same place all day, it wasn't fulfilling to make use of the environment.

[Moniker]

I arranged a fight inside of a two storey water-driven millhouse. They were fighting along the rickety stairwell leading upward, until it collapsed underneath the weight of all of the foes and allies aligned upon it. In the aftermath, the forces that were weighing down against the allies inside set the outside ablaze, and the players had to climb OUT of the mill along the massive driver that turned the grinding stone below and make their way onto the waterwheel and into the river.

It was a combat/skill challenge all in one!

[Rechan]

My players really haven't utilized the terrain at all.

But, I had them battle an earth spirit. Every round at the 0 initiative, I had a battlefield effect; a 5 square wall would form, or a 10ft 2x2 pit would form.

It definitely changed things up, especially preventing the warlock and bard from standing back and shooting.

At another point, I had a room that was filled with a necrotic gas that filled the room a foot off the ground (so PCs could crawl under it safely). It was heavy obscuring. The room had a crossbow turret trap, two pit traps, and a corruption corpse (Which I allowed to see through the gas). So the PCs had to decide if they wanted to take the damage from the gas, crawl (and thus move very slow), while under fire from the CC and crossbow turrets.

[chaotix42]

Most recently, the PCs fought (another!) pair of dragons in an old sewer. Since they were facing two solos I filled the sewer with things they could use to their advantage. They were just leaving the area when the dragons attacked, so the PCs sent their NPCs running ahead while they covered their retreat - since the PCs had just traveled through this area I took a minute to hint at the various possibilities...

- Though not really to the PCs advantage, a pair of canals ran through the map, filled with chest-high slow-running water bordered by narrow catwalks and a few bridges leading to adjoining passageways. The water was difficult terrain for everyone but the halfling (who had to swim) and climbing up and down required an Athletics check. The paladin jumped down into the water ASAP and took the battle to one of the dragons without hesitation.

- I set several portcullises around the area. Each could be raised/lowered with a minor action, and if one was dropped on a dragon it did damage, knocked it prone & restrained it. When a dragon escaped from a portcullis it shattered it, so it could no longer function - passing through the resultant wreckage counted as difficult terrain. One of the dragons fell for this trick the first time while charging head first, but they wised up to the tactic, at which point the PCs resorted to forced movement. A total of 3 portcullises were dropped on dragons.

- Pressurized pipes ran through several spaces on the map, and they could be easily broken with a minor action. Steam was then released in a close burst 2, filling the area with total concealment until the start of the vandal's next turn, at which point it thinned to normal concealment for the rest of the encounter. The wizard and the rogue used these to great effect, facilitating temporary retreats to more favorable areas.

- A few barrels filled with a suspicious alchemical substance were sitting nearby. The PCs could spill the barrels and a few sparks would create a burning slick, or they could attack the barrels and detonate them for big damage (both in a close burst 2). The rogue slid one of the dragons into a cluster of barrels with a sneak attack then popped an AP and blew the barrels up for over 100 total damage on his turn. There was much rejoicing.

- Nearby in a cramped chamber was a large boiler, straining under long years of use and disrepair. With a simple attack the boiler would go off like a bomb, doing big damage and stunning anyone in a close burst 3. The blast would also destroy the wall the boiler was mounted on, creating another entrance into the chamber. The PCs lured one dragon into the blast, and the other flew in through the new hole in the wall while several PCs chased it down. The fighter, carrying one of the explosive barrels from earlier, hurled it into the room through the hole while everyone hightailed it out of there - the wizard blew it up once everyone got to a safe distance.

[dangerous jack]

Originally Posted by chaotix42

Most recently, the PCs fought (another!) pair of dragons in an old sewer. Since they were facing two solos I filled the sewer with things they could use to their advantage. They were just leaving the area when the dragons attacked, so the PCs sent their NPCs running ahead while they covered their retreat - since the PCs had just traveled through this area I took a minute to hint at the various possibilities...

I'd love to see your map for this. Sounds like an amazing encounter.

My best homebrewed encounter so far was a simple one using a narrowing valley, lots of deep snow, snow-covered pit traps, and some monsters that weren't affected by the snowy terrain. I wrote it up a while ago in the thread at: [Encounter] Bones of the Beast (level 1)

In another, I allowed the party to build their own campsite in a hostile forest. They could choose to camp by cliffs, move large fallen trees into defensive positions, etc. In the end, that terrain didn't play any part in the encounter. But one interesting feature was that the attackers (influenced animals) would not willingly enter or stay in a square adjacent to the campfire. The party managed to use forced movement to move the animals adjacent, then get opportunity attacks as the animals moved away on their turns.

In the big pleasure den encounter I had crafted, with (innocent) languorous revellers that would hug the PCs as they moved by, copper braziers that could be kicked over, and three tiers with sudden dropoffs... the party used amazing rolls (2 20's) on social skills to keep the bad guy and his lackeys from attacking. But since they let him live, I may get to re-use the setup.

[chaotix42]

Originally Posted by dangerous jack

I'd love to see your map for this. Sounds like an amazing encounter.

I have yet to erase it! I'll see what I can do about getting a picture uploaded this evening.

My best homebrewed encounter so far was a simple one using a narrowing valley, lots of deep snow, snow-covered pit traps, and some monsters that weren't affected by the snowy terrain. *Snip*

That's damn sweet! The PDF pushes it over the top. I've yet to really build an encounter where the enemy has ___ walk and the majority of the terrain is ___. I've had lots of encounters with plenty of difficult terrain, but not really like yours. Well, I've used insubstantial creatures a lot, but monsters that just ignore what the PCs are having to suffer through (like your yetis) are just mean.

In another, I allowed the party to build their own campsite in a hostile forest. *Snip*

That's a neat concept that can be adapted to all sorts of scenarios! Vampires in a chamber where thin beams of sunlight are breaking through the ceiling/walls, illuminating certain spaces. Let the PCs attack weakened areas to let in more sunlight! Idea yoinked - thanks!

Also, gotta love pleasure dens.

[LittleFuzzy]

I try and include various features, tables that can be utilized in various ways, lots of pillars, sinkholes, small pits, swathes of ablaze terrain, etc, but my players just seem to make it a rule to stay as far as possible from any square that isn't completely featureless. The only time I've ever seen them do anything besides use pillars for cover is when a warlock in a mini-adventure used Diabolic Grasp to pick up a flame snake and throw it into the pit/tunnel that was the escape route for the dragon's lair they were in.

[Truename]

Most of my encounters are pretty ordinary compared to the ones people have described so far, but I do try to include lots of useful dungeon dressing (braziers, ledges, torches) that the players can use in every one. I'm also pretty generous in my rulings. It took them a while to get used to it, but now my players make use of the terrain in every encounter, and they've even started using it in ways I didn't expect. (I've also house-ruled away the 'you get a save when forcibly moved into hazardous terrain' rule. It makes using terrain more rewarding and keeps the game moving.)

For example, one of the encounters in our last session had a big tapestry in it. It was supposed to be a plot element, not a terrain element, but the cleric decided to use Command to forcibly roll a troll up in the tapestry. He rolled a hit, so I ruled that the troll was restrained (save ends). Then the ranger lit the troll on fire with Dragonfire Tar and I ruled that it did +2 dmg/rnd because the troll was wrapped up in the flammable tapestry.

(That was actually a very sad encounter for me; I was looking forward to using the troll's ability to grab people and use them as weapons, and he didn't land a single hit!)

Another thing that's made a difference is having a rogue in the party. He loves getting total concealment, so the party's often mucking around with lighting so he has some darkness to hide in. This makes the combats more dynamic, and last session they got ambushed by a cavern choker who was hiding in the darkness they created.

[Ahglock]

I break terrain into two types.

1. Traps and other dangerous obstacles.

2. Tactical advantage terrain, like cover, or hard to reach places.

1. I like using these infrequently. We had one encounter where the party held the line near one, and the fight basically became how many people can we throw into a deep well. Cool at first, but it kind of became a boring gimmick.

2. I like this in every encounter. I try to avoid overusing, the bad guys have X static tactical advantage though. What usually happens in these cases is its a pain in the butt peppering of damage form a source you can't reach for a while, then hey you get to them and look its a standard slugfest. But I do like scattering tactical advantages across the battlefield so the players and enemies can move into and out of these spots as the battle progresses. Even basic pillars add something to the fight IMO.

[Markn]

I have run quite few encounters for 4e. My group has played Keep on the Shadowfell and then we started back on 1st level and have just reached 8th.

I've seen a number of encounters with different criteria and styles.

First, I would say that anybody who has access to D&D insider should definately check out Dungeon Magazine and if you don't have access to it, you should get it. While I have not used any adventures per se, I have found a LOT of encounters adaptable to my own campaign and many of the encounters give me new ways of building them. It is a fountain of ideas.

Having said that, I have found that encounters that have a goal besides a straight up fight to be the most exciting. Rescuing a prisoner before he dies, recovering a magic item before the bad guy flees with it, escaping a trap before it goes off are all examples of this. Here are some encounters I have run or been a part of:

This one is from dungeon. It is essentially a dungeon like room that has several platforms at different levels. Enemies are spread out on the the platforms encouraging the PCs to work their way up the room. In addition to that the room is filling with a dangerous substance (could be lava, water, whatever you like) and after a few rounds the lower platform is engulfed, then 2 more rounds later, the next platform is engulfed and so on. This encourages movement not only by the players but also by the monsters. This is a great example of a dynamic fight.

Another fight I ran just last session was made up of mostly controllers. It was essentially a cultists lair but it had the main area of the chamber, it had some stairs with a ledge that was 10' high and I had four large bird cages haning about 15' up he wall in each corner of the room. At the beginning of the fight, all the PC's except one were in the centre of the room, a twilight encanter and a medusa were on the ledge and I had Harpies in the cages. One PC had snuck into the room as a rat and had climbed up to the ceiling rafters. Originally, the PCs thought that the harpies were captives but as the fight progressed they realized that the cages acted as cover for the harpies providing protection and the harpies could get out by opening the cage door because it was not locked. With the harpies able to pull the PCs, the twilight encanter able to bind or blind the PC and the Medusa able to slow, immobilize and turn them to stone the PCs were always on their toes and could easily be caught by themselves. I sprinkled in a few dopplegangers to do some damage and it was a lot of fun all around. The 10' ledge forceed Pcs to go up there to tackle the monsters since they were out of melee reach. This isn't a great example of terrain use but does serve as an example how mundane rooms can be a bit more interesting with the proper creature types.

Another fight I was a part of as a player was in a burning corn field. Fire and smoke created concealment and the rows of corn made it so anybody could pop out from nowhere. It was a hide and seek type fight that worked really well.

Yet another fight was at a gnoll encampment that had lots of tents and cages of prisoners. We showed up, kicked some @ss and then the DM had a returning war party come from the otherside of the clearing. We were caught in the middle and then had to make the best use of the tents and crates in the area to get some cover.

While none of these examples provided contain any sort of fantastic terrain each encounter featured an element that made the terrain a tactically superior option in combat. I've found there to be two key things. First, find a reason for the PCs use the terrain or be forced to make use of it, otherwise the terrain just sits there. Secondly, fights where the PCs are mixed up with the bad guys (this could be surrounded, caught between two groups or interspersed with them) makes things more dynamic.

As a DM, if you don't give the PC's a reason to use the terrain and make options that make the use of terrain an optimal tactic, then PCs will just stand there and slug it out because THAT option becomes the superior tactic.
I have found this to be the most radical change in thinking from 3e to 4e. I sometimes forget to do this and it quickly turns into a boring fight.

[RangerWickett]

One of my DMs ran a fight with a blue dragon on the roofs of a halfling pontoon village. It was cool because, even though the dragon could fly to get away from some of our attacks, we could dive in the water to avoid it. That, plus jumping between rooftops and using improvised weapons like clothes lines and fishing nets was fun. Certainly the weirdest dragon fight I've ever played.

[chaotix42]

Here are some pics of the map I used for my sewer encounter. The PCs began the encounter on the catwalk by the broken bridge, ready to exit the area but yet to cross. Two Heralds of Tiamat are persuing the PCs, an adult black dragon and an adult green. The black surfaced right next to the PCs and hit them with his breath weapon while the green flew in from the southeast along the canal. The PCs fought all across the map, doing their best to lay low two solo opponents.



The room on the east side of the map contained the volatile boiler, mounted on the west wall. When the PCs blew it up I erased it and caved in the adjacent wall, turning the new area into difficult terrain that granted concealment. When the green dragon flew through the opening he triggered a collapse and I colored in a few spaces a bit darker - those granted total concealment.



Here you can better see the portcullises and the nearby levers that controlled them. I didn't bother to draw in broken portcullises - we all remembered where they were. I suppose I could have put down a few twisted bars.



Here you can see the one remaining barrel. The western dead end contained three barrels, while the one to south had a happy little friend which was thrown at the two dragons near the end of the fight.

You can see the spaces with pipes in them - those little clusters of black widgets. As with the portcullises I didn't bother to draw in the clouds of steam once the pipes were destroyed. Probably should have but we remembered - the fight was moving around so much they didn't matter for too long anyway.

[Paul Strack]

In my last session, the group entered a cavern with a shallow river running through it. The PC side of the cavern was clear (no cover) but the monster side had plenty of cover (stone columns). The river was 5 squares wide and difficult terrain. All the monsters had ranged attacks.

None of this was very complicated to set up or sketch out, but it made for an interesting fight as the players were forced to invent their own cover (hide behind the Paladin!), distract the enemy as they crossed the river and shuttle around to get a clean LOS for ranged attacks.

[dangerous jack]

Originally Posted by chaotix42

Here are some pics of the map I used for my sewer encounter.

Cool maps. Sounds & looks like a fun one. Thanks for posting these.

Originally Posted by chaotix42

Vampires in a chamber where thin beams of sunlight are breaking through the ceiling/walls, illuminating certain spaces. Let the PCs attack weakened areas to let in more sunlight! Idea yoinked - thanks

Great idea, and I'll yoink it myself. Add in a few pivoting mirrors to redirect sunlight to really give the PCs some battlefield control. I've always wanted to try something like that.

[DanmarLOK]

I've used the flaming torches from the Scales of War - Rivenroar starting adventure to good effect, they're useful for dividing the battlefield randomly into pockets as the flame spreads and shifting, pushing, sliding creatures into them works well.

I've used large braziers of flaming coals and stone cauldrons of acid that could be dumped in one direction causing two squares of diffcult terrain or a burst 1 that starting or passing through them caused damage.

Hanging chains in a tortuer chamber that could be used to bypass formations with an acrobatics or athletics roll.

Tables that could be tipped over to provide cover.

And in one case with a hill giant some stone columns that he could smash and cause an explosive blast of shrapnel and that weakened the ceiling above that required perception or dungeoneering check to notice which sections were going to fall down.

12-18" deep depressions filled with mud and topped with a light layer of snow that knocked prone (save avoids) and stopped movement that affected both sides. Just a random chance to encounter one during the movement rather than trying to figure out the pre-plotted positions.

Kind of a classic but heavy chandeliers that could have the rope or the hook the rope was tied to cut / broken to drop the chandelier that could catch someone below it or cause difficult terrain.

I draw a / in each square a mob dies and turn it into a X when two die there which creates difficult terrain.

Umm let's see what else. parapets and rooftops and upper floors, standard stuff.

That's all I can think of that might be unique enough to mention.

[caranha]

1st level adventure, the characters had to sneak into a noble state's catacomb and steal his treasure.

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1- The secret back entrance to the catacomb featured a largish (10 squares) rope bridge over a chasm, with a bunch of kobolds on the other side. On the way in, the characters could make a small acrobatics contest with kobolds on the bridge to shake it and make them fall prone/into the chasm. On the way back, they cut down the bridge to lose the pursuing guards.

=====

2- The last combat encounter, before the lord's secret studio, featured a small circular room with 2 square radius. The doors leading in and out of the room were heavy iron doors which could be slided up into the ceiling by pulling a chain, but would fall back as soon as the chain was released (so someone had to hold them open). Inside the room were two mechanical guardians.

When the characters entered the room, the guardians activate, and the circular room starts to spin at a high speed (90 degrees at initiative 0). Characters who entered the room were at -2 to attacks until they got their bearings (save ends - the constructs were immune). Entering or leaving the room required a moderate athletics check, with the character getting prone on a miss.

Finally, there were two sets of blades were on the walls in the N and S ends of the room (the doors were E and W). Any creature (enemies included) near the wall when the room spun whose path would go through the blades received a pretty nasty attack.

The result was a really cool looking fight (Battling clockwork robots in tight quarters on a spinning platform), with the melee characters fighting to stand in the middle of the room and trying to bull rush the two constructs into the traps set in the wall, and vice-versa.

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3- In another (1st level) adventure, an underground L-shaped chamber had a number of small tunnels connecting different parts of it. A group of goblin sharpshooters were hiding in these tunnels and would poke their heads out to snipe the party, and when noticed would rush back and head to another end of the tunnel to try again.

As luck would have it, no one in the party was small, so they had to play whack-a-mole with the sharpshooters.

(some options which were not explored by the group: Burning some of the props in the room to smoke the goblins out of the tunnels, using Stealth to move around silent so that the goblins would not know the position of the party while they were moving inside the tunnels)

[Rughat]

I'm loving the great ideas in this discussion. Side question: how much information do you give your players about the terrain features? Do you tell them "You see X" and leave it to them to figure out how to use it? Do you say "A DC 15 strength check will break this pipe, injuring anyone in a 2x2 burst around it and granting concealment for two turns?" Somewhere in between?

[keterys]

If you've got Thunderspire Labyrinth, check out the rooms with the last 3 of 4 relics and the guardian's room, for examples of terrain in use.