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No, its a double weapon, but still only 1 implement. Similarly, if you took Arcane Proficiency (Heavy Blade), you couldn't use a double bladed sword with dual implement spell caster.
Hurm. RAI, I agree, that this shouldn't fly. The caster is getting double the enhancement bonus of his item added to damage essentially for free. RAW though, I'm not so sure. Don't double weapons essentially say to treat them as two separate weapons for rules purposes? Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be an entry in the Compendium for the double weapon property.
This is probably something that could use a WotC response.
__________________ “When one awakes, and rolls from his pallet, and strides across the cold rushes to put flame to lantern. When the world is asleep around him. When the whippoorwill sings and crickets speak. When one is alone, in silence, with nothing but a book. That, my son, is glory. That is all the glory a man ever needs, and more besides.” - Sage Poridel Poriden, Sins of Our Fathers
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Free? It costs 2 feats... One of which has a dex requirement, the other a wis. Far from free.
Keep in mind, to get ANY bonus from the second implement, he'd have to get the Dual Implement Wielder feat anyway, so it isn't appropriate to count that in the "cost" of this concept.
That said, sure it costs one feat to make the staff a double weapon, but for the price of that feat you're getting a "double the enhancement bonus of staves for damage rolls". Is that balanced with the usual requirement from users of the feat of having to buy an additional Implement to carry? I guess that will vary from DM to DM.
__________________ “When one awakes, and rolls from his pallet, and strides across the cold rushes to put flame to lantern. When the world is asleep around him. When the whippoorwill sings and crickets speak. When one is alone, in silence, with nothing but a book. That, my son, is glory. That is all the glory a man ever needs, and more besides.” - Sage Poridel Poriden, Sins of Our Fathers
Are you running SoW and are interested in getting some ideas on the overarching plot?
Looking for better ways to tie the disparate modules together?
Come visit my thread on doing exactly that! Also, visit the wiki it inspired! Player's stay out!
No, its a double weapon, but still only 1 implement. Similarly, if you took Arcane Proficiency (Heavy Blade), you couldn't use a double bladed sword with dual implement spell caster.
Agreed.
You're still not wielding two implements.
Never go by the CB for rules. Someday it may be bug free and apply all the rules appropriately. That also assumes no more errata at some point too.
Keep in mind, to get ANY bonus from the second implement, he'd have to get the Dual Implement Wielder feat anyway, so it isn't appropriate to count that in the "cost" of this concept.
That said, sure it costs one feat to make the staff a double weapon, but for the price of that feat you're getting a "double the enhancement bonus of staves for damage rolls". Is that balanced with the usual requirement from users of the feat of having to buy an additional Implement to carry? I guess that will vary from DM to DM.
No matter the DM, you're almost guaranteed to have an old implement of 1 less plus than your current one. It's the one you had before you got your current one.
Basically, a staff wielder spends two feats, one with a dex requirement and one with a wisdom requirement to get 1 ac and double the enhancement bonus of his staff to damage. That doesn't sound too bad to me. An other caster, for example, sorcerer, can spend one feat that has a dex requirement to get a feat that adds his enhancement bonus to damage -1. Sounds fair too. My sorcerer currently uses a mage's parrying dagger for his off hand, but he'll likely pick up the dual implement feat and use his older dagger in his offhand when he gets the feats for it.
__________________ I will build a throne with the skulls of my foemen.
Keep in mind, to get ANY bonus from the second implement, he'd have to get the Dual Implement Wielder feat anyway, so it isn't appropriate to count that in the "cost" of this concept.
That said, sure it costs one feat to make the staff a double weapon, but for the price of that feat you're getting a "double the enhancement bonus of staves for damage rolls". Is that balanced with the usual requirement from users of the feat of having to buy an additional Implement to carry? I guess that will vary from DM to DM.
There are other advantages to wielding two implements, like getting the benefit of two properties and the potential use of two implement mastery features.
I doubt it. It's still only one implement, it just counts as two weapons.
The main end counts as a +x staff (of a given type) and a +x staff (generic magic weapon), just as a double sword counts as a +x sword (of a given type) in the main hand and a +x sword (generic magic weapon) in the off hand. You quite clearly do count as having a staff in each hand, therefore dual implement applies.
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I wouldn't trust the character builder at face value on issues like this - bug report it and see what WOTC says.
Why should I given that I'm happy with the outcome and it makes sense? If you think it's a bug then why not report it and report back.
Incidentally, the character builder only allows you to dual wield a staff implement if you already have the staff fighting feat, not if you simply hold the staff in both hands as a weapon. That suggests a level of intent rather than an accidental result.
Why should I given that I'm happy with the outcome and it makes sense? If you think it's a bug then why not report it and report back.
Because the character builder is known to have many bugs, and this could be a new one?
It may very well be the intent of the designers that it works the way you want it too, but personally, I'd rather know for sure before I counted on it.
I will bug report it before I play my next staff wizard who uses Two weapon fighting and Dual implements, if no one else has.
Because the character builder is known to have many bugs, and this could be a new one?
Depends on your definition of bug. I've always thought that a bug was when it allowed something which it clearly wasn't supposed to (or vice versa).
When something makes sense both from a rational and RAW point of view, and when I've discussed it with the DM for the game in which I intend to use it, and who agrees with my understanding, then I have very little cause to assume that the character builder is wrong in supporting me purely because some of the more reactionary members of ENworld are running around screaming about it. Belt and braces can be useful in some situations, but belt, braces and an elastic waistband just seems silly.
Depends on your definition of bug. I've always thought that a bug was when it allowed something which it clearly wasn't supposed to (or vice versa).
Some people think this clearly isn't allowed. Just because the character builder allows it, doesn't mean they are wrong. The character builder allows several things that are clearly wrong.
There is little point in debating it here, you clearly want it to work and don't want to risk finding out that it might not.
I'll send a question off to WOTC when I have time, because I'd actually like to know if it's supposed to work or not. I do a have a staff fighting wizard build I plan on playing at some point, and if it works then the dual implement feat would be an easy way to pick up an extra damage bonus.
You would be able to gain the benefit from Dual Implement Spellcaster feat with a double weapon that is also your implement.
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Paul
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Customer (Caliban)06/19/2009 12:21 PM
If you are proficient with a double weapon, and that weapon is also an implement for you, can you make use of the Dual Implement Spellcaster feat with the weapon as well? (This could be a wizard or invoker with the Staff fighting feat, or a swordmage with a double sword)
It counts as wielding two staffs. You can use a staff as an implement. Fun with staffs of ruin.
The extra damage on a staff of ruin is listed as item bonus, but the Dual implement feat states that you get the enhancement bonus of the item in your off hand. Staff of ruin in the offhand would be no better than other implement
The extra damage on a staff of ruin is listed as item bonus, but the Dual implement feat states that you get the enhancement bonus of the item in your off hand. Staff of ruin in the offhand would be no better than other implement
He means that if you have a staff of ruin and the appropriate feats, then you gain 3 times the enhancement bonus to damage with your attacks. This is fun because you're adding a ridiculous amount of damage from your item.
__________________ I will build a throne with the skulls of my foemen.
There is little point in debating it here, you clearly want it to work and don't want to risk finding out that it might not.
Hardly. You're not the first person to ask custserve that question and get the same answer, but I didn't have a link to the previous instance and somehow I don't think "Someone somewhere I don't know got a custserve ok on a previous thread but I can't prove it, sorry" would have gone down well. Besides, custserve are hardly infallible. But it appears that I've been vindicated so why worry.
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