+1/level instead of +½ level?

[Angellis_ater]

+1/level instead of +½ level?

I've been looking at the bonuses most PCs get to their stats over time and started to wonder if maybe there was a better way to do it?

Abilities:
+1 @ 11/21 = +1
+1 to 2 at 4/8/14/18/24/28 = +3

Items:
+6 magic item enhancements = +6

This equal +10 over 30 levels. Wouldn't it be easier to just hand this out? In
fact, with a +15 bonus to attacks and defenses, that makes it +25 over 30 levels. Why not make it +1/level instead and remove all increases of Ability Scores and Magic Items?

There seems to be two problematic "points", the first is that the +10 applies to damage, but the +15 from levels do not. Is there a solution to this? IS this even a problem? This could severly speed up most fights. When we played Paragon level games, we often encountered the mythical "Grind" problem, and this might even help a little with this.

The second problem is that with an AC that scales like this, the Heavy/Light Armor differentiation becomes null and pointless. Heavy Armor would in this case always be better than Light Armor. The only real solution I see is to allow Light Armor to add Dexterity/Intelligence anyway (even though this, on a mathemical level is done twice).

 

[Destil]

It's a lot cleaner than expertise + magic/inherent bonuses to clean up attack bonuses. You've identified the key issue it would have with AC and defenses, finding a good work around and it solves those, too.

If you have grind issues I'd be the first to say either A) go ahead and allow +level to damage or B) convert some of it to crit dice. That's the one thing you're not accounting for, there. In the paragon game I've played in the grind hasn't really come up, usually fights we're down to at-wills are real close nail biters where we started low on resources. But if it does go ahead and add it, possibly in addition to a crit bonus.

 

[Elric]

There seems to be two problematic "points", the first is that the +10 applies to damage, but the +15 from levels do not. Is there a solution to this? IS this even a problem? This could severly speed up most fights. When we played Paragon level games, we often encountered the mythical "Grind" problem, and this might even help a little with this.

The second problem is that with an AC that scales like this, the Heavy/Light Armor differentiation becomes null and pointless. Heavy Armor would in this case always be better than Light Armor. The only real solution I see is to allow Light Armor to add Dexterity/Intelligence anyway (even though this, on a mathemical level is done twice).

Multi-attacks would get too good. This is particularly true for Twin Strike, which didn’t get ability mods in the first place.

You’d have to re-work feat stat requirements. Some classes lose a lot from ability scores not increasing.

Masterwork Armor would have to go. After you do that, heavy and light armor users are comparable.

This is too big a change to contemplate making without a ton of disruption. However, this 1/level principle would be a good way to design a game in the first place (indeed, it seems like the math is essentially intended to do this in 4e, and the many different sources of bonuses being required to line up is a flaw and not a feature).

In a related note, Mutants and Masterminds has a similar approach in setting an overall power level for a character—but as a point buy game, you could choose how your character hit caps (e.g., one character might have a magic sword, another character might have a Blast of flame, and a third character might have tremendous strength).

 

[Angellis_ater]

It's a lot cleaner than expertise + magic/inherent bonuses to clean up attack bonuses. You've identified the key issue it would have with AC and defenses, finding a good work around and it solves those, too.

If you have grind issues I'd be the first to say either A) go ahead and allow +level to damage or B) convert some of it to crit dice. That's the one thing you're not accounting for, there. In the paragon game I've played in the grind hasn't really come up, usually fights we're down to at-wills are real close nail biters where we started low on resources. But if it does go ahead and add it, possibly in addition to a crit bonus.

Please share how you see it being converted into critdice? My original solution was that if a character had a "magic weapon" it would come with a Crit Die size (D6-D12) and the number of dice would depend on level (1-5 = 1, 6-10 = 2 and so on)

Multi-attacks would get too good. This is particularly true for Twin Strike, which didn’t get ability mods in the first place.

You’d have to re-work feat stat requirements. Some classes lose a lot from ability scores not increasing.

Masterwork Armor would have to go. After you do that, heavy and light armor users are comparable.

This is too big a change to contemplate making without a ton of disruption. However, this 1/level principle would be a good way to design a game in the first place (indeed, it seems like the math is essentially intended to do this in 4e, and the many different sources of bonuses being required to line up is a flaw and not a feature).

Some of these things are awesome, feedback wise, and the reason I ask these questions on these boards. Many minds think better than one in this case.

I've already contemplated reworking the notorious Twin Strike to use the same "mechanic" as the Whirling Barbarian powers (ie it's either Make one attack roll, if it hits, both hit - or even better: Make two attack rolls, if either hits do 1W, it both hits, do 1W to another creature too). But that is neither here nor there - it IS a problem, since Stat bonuses are folded into the attack/damage increase. There are a few such problem areas, but they feel small compared to the problems they DO solve.

I don't mind removing "Masterwork Armor", and I am considering how big the changes to stats need to be. My gut says -2 at Paragon and -4 at Epic would probably do the trick.

Well, I am looking for feedback on what kinds of disruptions such a change would incur and if it is possible to make it work within a 4E framework.

 

[ggroy]

If the +level/2 adjustment for attacks and defenses is changed to +level, this would manifest itself significantly in fighting opponents of vastly differing levels.

As an example of this with +level adjustment, a level 10 badguy with STR 10, CON 10, DEX 10, and no armor or bonuses would have an AC of 20. A level 1 fighter/paladin with STR 10 and no magic weapons or bonuses, would have a 10% probability of hitting this AC 20 badguy. A level 1 fighter/paladin with a strength of 20 and no magic weapons or bonuses, would have a 35% chance of hitting this AC 20 badguy.

In the normal 4E case with a +level/2 adjustment, a badguy with STR 10, CON 10, DEX 10, and no armor or bonuses would only have an AC of 20 at level 20.

As an extrapolation on this topic, a hypothetical +2*level adjustment to attacks and defenses would exacerbate this even further. In this scenario, a level 5 badguy with STR 10, CON 10, DEX 10, and no armor or bonuses would have an AC of 20.

I imagine how one defines a base level bonus for the attacks and defenses (whether +level/2, +level, +2*level, etc ...), is largely dependent on how one wants to "pace" the game with respect to levels.

 

[DracoSuave]

One disadvantage I can see is two-fold.

Your primary attribute will lose importance. So unless it's like Wisdom for a cleric and fuels things other than attack rolls and damage rolls, there'll be no point in making it high.

Conversely, secondary attributes will get the focus at early levels. For some classes this might seem fine, but for some classes this will end up being a terrible nerf:

Paladins rely strongly on wisdom increases in order to make many of their powers better. Lay on Hands is the obvious example, but other powers such as Radiant Strike come to mind.

Warlords are not only dependant on Strength, but also their secondary is used to make their abilities to lead stronger... this nerf will nerf the entire party, not just the singular character. Worse, Resourceful Warlords will become unplayable outside of heroic tier. The same can be said for Shamans (especially Bear Shamans) and for Artificers.

Sorcerers have the additional attribute increases calculated into their damage balance. They can remain competitive with d6-adding striker classes simply because they're adding to two damage-dealing attributes at 4,8,etc, not just one. Rogues also suffer because of this, and Avengers to a lesser degree.

This will have consequences beyond smoothing out the math for hit-rolls (which is of dubious advantage). There are objects of game balance beyond making 'the central math look pretty' which is not necessarily synonymous with 'fun' or 'workable.'

 

[UltimaGabe]

Shouldn't this belong in the House Rules section?

 

[Elric]

If the +level/2 adjustment for attacks and defenses is changed to +level, this would manifest itself significantly in fighting opponents of vastly differing levels.

None of this is relevant. The rules for creating monsters don't change.

One disadvantage I can see is two-fold.

Your primary attribute will lose importance. So unless it's like Wisdom for a cleric and fuels things other than attack rolls and damage rolls, there'll be no point in making it high.

The original poster did not propose not adding primary attributes to hit/damage. He proposed not increasing ability scores as characters gain levels.

 

[ggroy]

Looking at 2E AD&D, the THAC0 system has buried in it a base level adjustment dependent on class.

Converting to 4E language, the base level adjustments are:

- fighter attacks have an adjustment of +(level-1)
- rogue attacks have an adjustment of +(level-1)/2
- priest attacks have an adjustment of +2*(level-1)/3
- wizard attacks have an adjustment of +(level-1)/3

 

[CovertOps]

I did a whole long post about scaling and NAD's here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/267173-non-ac-defenses-4.html#post4981401 which may have some useful information for you.

I'm at the point where I want my house rules to integrate with character builder. I am currently using the "Intrinsic" option and have a house rule to replace Expertise type feats. I think it's a lot easier if I just outlaw the Expertise feats and lower monster defenses by the house rule amount based on party level instead of giving them a bonus to attacks. To address the grind issue I am going to start reducing creature HPs by some % and increase their damage by the inverse (half HPs would be double damage) amount. Somewhere between 20-40% I'm thinking.

Example @ 30%: = 70/100
HP 100 * 70 / 100 = 70
Damage
2d10 = 11 average * 100/70 = 15.7 so 3d10 = 16.5
+ 5 * 100/70 = 7.1 (7)

I've tried a few other ideas, but they seem to slow things down more than help out. My major problem has been how long combats last and I think this change is going to be the best one I can do for my table as it's low maintenance for me (an extra minute per creature with adventure tools maybe before a combat?) and basically nothing but a campaign file for the PCs that outlaws some feats.

My question becomes....What is the goal you are trying to achieve?