Okay .... So an Eldritch Giant Confessor is only a CR 20??

[Cyronax]

All,

I am planning for future sessions of my increasingly high level homebrew campaign, and I came across the Eldritch Giant Confessor. The normal eldritch giant of the MM3 is a CR 13, while the Confessor is a CR 20 -- having gained 11 levels of cleric.

Why wouldn't the CR be higher than 20? It seems like it should come out to be in the mid-twenties. I know an 11th level cleric's magic is piss poor against a party that could take out an epic level CR, but I'm still interested in an explanation of the pertinent game mechanic.

It seems like there's yet another part of the CR system that I don't grasp.

Thanks!

C.I.D.

 

[Nail]

Non-associated class levels count for 1/2 CR per level.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Don't underestimate the importance of playtesting. If the playtesting groups say that the CR24 creature on paper is CR20 in real play, well there we go.

In this case perhaps it is enough non-associated levels may reach the point where they begin to move towards associated levels? I.e. 11 levels halved = +5CR, but 6th level spells may move the CR up another 2 for this specific creature.

 

[pawsplay]

Looking it, my thought was, "How is cleric non-associated for a strong melee character with a Wis bonus?"

 

[frankthedm]

I know an 11th level cleric's magic is piss poor against a party that could take out an epic level CR, but I'm still interested in an explanation of the pertinent game mechanic.

Associated Class Levels
Class levels that increase a monster’s existing strengths are known as associated class levels. Each associated class level a monster has increases its CR by 1.

Barbarian, fighter, paladin, and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on its fighting ability.

Rogue and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on stealth to surprise its foes, or on skill use to give itself an advantage.

A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability.

Nonassociated Class Levels
If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by 1/2 per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.

Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated.

Looking it, my thought was, "How is cleric non-associated for a strong melee character with a Wis bonus?"

Because the person assigning the CR felt the spells the EG-C will bring to the battle won't be significant to warrant the levels being associated?

The spells can hurt, but the EG has a lot of very good options for every round of combat. And that is why nonassociated levels are a big factor of classed monster CR. Most of the times a monster's natural abilities are more dangerous than whatever ability the character class has bestowed.

The EG-C may have some good potential, but any round he casts a cleric spell is a round he is not attacking with his ungodly BAB. Even in worse case scenario he has advanced warning of the party and pulls off the “50’ tall and farting fire” combo of Righteous Might, Divine power and Divine favor, a single targeted greater dispel slags all his buffs. And I would partially fault the party for dragging ass for giving the EG-C the time to buff up in such a manner...

It did look cheesy adding the 11th level of cleric and not bumping CR. I would definitely say round up, not down, the amount of non associated level in that situation. {CR21, not 20]

I have not play tested high level play, but perhaps treating the cleric levels as semi nonassociated [4 levels / 3CR ] might make a better approximation of CR, something around CR 23.

Overall, my gut says someone needs to make sure whoever assigned that CR gets the “CR is an art, not a science” memo.

 

[pawsplay]

Why would he attack with a cleric spell? Why wouldn't he just buff himself ahead of time, then wade into battle with his two good saves, and use scrolls of healing as needed? I certainly wasn't benchmarking him as a "blaster cleric." If nothing else, obscuring mist makes him immune to sneak attacks and gives him a substantial defense against missiles, and that's a first level spell.

Even if he did choose to be an offensive cleric, with a Wis bonus, you can gain ground very quickly... often it matters much less what spell you use, and much more how high you can get that DC. With extra HD and a good Wis, the answer is, "very high." And once a spell is successful, he can finish things very quickly. If you are paralyzed, blind, cursed, or whatever, you won't last long against an angry giant.

 

[Stalker0]

Cleric buffs at a CL of 11 against a 20th level party are nonexistant. 1 greater dispel magic and they are all gone. Then you just have a giant with some d8 hitpoints, some healing (which ain't much against 20th level parties either), and a few more BAB.

 

[Elethiomel]

Or he could have met casters before and secured the purchase of a Ring of Spell Turning and put Greater Dispel in it.

 

[pawsplay]

Cleric buffs at a CL of 11 against a 20th level party are nonexistant. 1 greater dispel magic and they are all gone. Then you just have a giant with some d8 hitpoints, some healing (which ain't much against 20th level parties either), and a few more BAB.

Greater dispel magic is a 6th level spell, which is a considerable use of resources, especially if the giant simply buffs himself again. Or if commands a flock of shadows to interrupt anyone who casts a spell at him. And if he is buffed, accompanied by summoned creatures, and using obscuring mist, what do you dispel first?

CL 11 means heal, which should be enough healing.

 

[dungeon blaster]

A 6th-level spell is not a considerable amount of resources for a 20th level party. In fact, 6th-level spells are basically throwaways at that point. You're also assuming that the giant has several rounds to prepare. It's not really appropriate to base a creature's CR on the assumption that it gets 5 rounds or so before the PCs attack.

I in fact gave an eldritch giant a ring of spell storing with a greater dispel. So, what did the PCs do? Cast a second greater dispel. And they were only 15th level at the time, but they could easily dispel an 11th level casters spells.

Heal? Sure, its good, but it just prolongs the giant's death by one round. 20th level characters can easily do 150 damage in a round without really expending any resources, and the giant just spent his action healing, so he's pretty much screwed the next round.