wielding two weapons... but not TWF

[Theo R Cwithin]

A character wields a club and a dagger. BAB +1, no TWF feat, no shield, etc.

He only makes a single attack with one of them each round; he's not "fighting with two weapons". But he wants to choose which one to use each round. Does he suffer any penalties for this?

If he can take an AoO at some point, can he choose which weapon to use, and what penalties, if any are incurred?

 

[Dandu]

No penalties. Yes, he can choose.

 

[Aluvial]

I disagree with Dandu on this one...

The penalties for attacking with two weapons are in the book...

But... handedness is/should be an issue in a game. Then primary/secondary weapons is created. Primary weapons used independently of the secondary weapon (standard action for instance) use the full Str for damage. Secondary weapons used while still using full BAB (what doesn't...) for standard action attacks (again, one attack) still take half Str damage for being in the off-hand/secondary position.

TWF penalties only come into play during Full Round Action attacks using both weapons. Full Round Actions with multiple attacks (due to higher BAB) that use one weapon or the other, either use full Str damage for primary, and half-damage for secondary (you cannot switch weapons mid attack this way though).

This is how I see this... The rules may ultimately prove me wrong...

Aluvial

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I disagree with Dandu on this one...

The penalties for attacking with two weapons are in the book...

But... handedness is/should be an issue in a game. Then primary/secondary weapons is created. Primary weapons used independently of the secondary weapon (standard action for instance) use the full Str for damage. Secondary weapons used while still using full BAB (what doesn't...) for standard action attacks (again, one attack) still take half Str damage for being in the off-hand/secondary position.

TWF penalties only come into play during Full Round Action attacks using both weapons. Full Round Actions with multiple attacks (due to higher BAB) that use one weapon or the other, either use full Str damage for primary, and half-damage for secondary (you cannot switch weapons mid attack this way though).

This is how I see this... The rules may ultimately prove me wrong...

Aluvial

I agree with Dandu. In 3.0, there was the Ambidexterity feat and the distinct implication that one hand was primary and the other you're not as skilled with. 3.5 got rid of that feat and simply rules that your "offhand" weapon -- the one that will get only 1/ str bonus and is limited by the number of TWF feats you have to the number of attacks you get, even if you have a higher BAB -- has a higher penalty. Nowhere in the rules does it say you have to pick which hand is more dextrous than the other. By RAW, there is no "left handed" or "right handed." I think that was the intent, too. They just abstracted the rules a little more to make things simpler to run and more fun (?). A similar thing happened to the long jump rules. In 3.0, they modeled real life quite well, at least until you reach level 6ish and you're beyond the limits of real life people. In 3.5, the jump rule got simplified and now does a much worse job of simulating real life expectations. See the "Calibrating your Expectations" essay linked in my sig to read more about this, if you want.

Balance-wise, I don't see the problem, either. Yeah, he has two different damage types on hand for use as needed. But he could instead be using a shield and getting more AC. Or two-handing one of the weapons and using Power Attack. So let him have his variety and be underpowered.

 

[Dandu]

I disagree with Dandu on this one...

The penalties for attacking with two weapons are in the book...

You are not attacking with two weapons. You're attacking with one weapon while holding two weapons. This is different.

This is how I see this... The rules may ultimately prove me wrong...

Let's review the rules on two weapon fighting.

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way.

If you're not attacking with both weapons at the same time, you should not incur TWF penalties.

 

[Aluvial]

I don't know... In both the Strength and Combat/Damage sections of the rules, they specifically say that off-hand weapons use 1/2 the Strength modifier to damge.

Off hand does not necessarily mean you are weilding two weapons... it means that the weapon is in your 'off (not primary) hand.'

The Glossary of Terms in the back of the 3.5 PHB clarifies the term 'off hand.' It states,

A character's weaker or less dextrous hand (usually the left). An attack made with the off hand incurs a -4 penalty on the attack roll. In addition, only one-half of a character's Strength bonus may be added to damage dealt with a weapon held in the off hand.

I have 'Handed' on my character sheets, although the one provided for photocopying in the back of the book does not have a place for it. Nonetheless, the rules seem clear to support my take on this.

Aluvial

 

[Dandu]

So all the character needs to do is declare that he's ambidextrous and we can call this issue settled?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm with Dandu: you can hold a weapon in each hand in combat, and as long as you only attack with one, you avoid invoking the TWF rules.

If you chose to attack with the off-hand one, you invoke the off-hand penalties...but still, if you don't attack with both weapons, those are the only penalties involved. If you are in 3Ed and Ambidextrous, that modifier disappears as well.

It is not until the PC is actively attacking with both weapons in the same round that the TWF rules matter.

 

[Aluvial]

So all the character needs to do is declare that he's ambidextrous and we can call this issue settled?

No, Ambidextrous, is not in the PHB/SRD/RAW. The rule is clearly intended to imply that characters have a weak hand and is in the rules as "off hand."

If you wanted to add it as a house rule, I would do Ambidexterity talent as part of an optional flaw/talent exchange as a 1st level character from the Unearthed Arcana. Ambidexterity in this case would reduce the penalty completely, but would also somehow change the TWF rules... OR... you could use the Ambidexterity talent and only have a -2 reduction on your off hand (w/ TWF issues as well).

Anyway, I hope this discussion helps the original poster. If in doubt, buy and read the Rules Compendium, search the SRD online, read the FAQ and errata, and especially, look for term definitions in the PHB glossary. I find the glossary to be extremely helpful for clarifying misleading terms in the game.

Aluvial

 

[Aluvial]

I'm with Dandu: you can hold a weapon in each hand in combat, and as long as you only attack with one, you avoid invoking the TWF rules.

If you chose to attack with the off-hand one, you invoke the off-hand penalties...but still, if you don't attack with both weapons, those are the only penalties involved. If you are in 3Ed and Ambidextrous, that modifier disappears as well.

It is not until the PC is actively attacking with both weapons in the same round that the TWF rules matter.

I'm with Dandu as well, in that you can choose to attack with either weapon. Where Dandu and I disagree, and you seem to agree, in your second line, is that off hand attacks take the -4 off hand penalty. TWF does not occur unless you actually attack with both weapons. I believe we all agree with that assessment as well.

Aluvial