feelings and thoughts on Psionics

DaemonHunter

First Post
I thought it best to start a new thread about this as i was starting to hijack another thread on psionics and didnt want to do that.

You can find the start of this thread here Psionic Books: WotC and Others to see where i am coming from.

I would like to know your feelings on psionics in 3.x/PF I dont mind if you post which books you prefer as we can always let the OP of the above post know as well. But mainly I want your feelings and thoughts. I like the 2e psionics if diffrent to magic feel of things as per many a DnD novel. This I feel you cant really get now, what do you think?

I might have to explain myself better as this thread goes on as I tend to ramble as you can probably tell :lol:
 

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My feelings on psionics are mostly based on isolated incidents.

I deal with psionics in two campaigns, one which I'm DMing and one in which I am a player.

The one in which I DM has up to now resulted in the least 'troublesome' experience.
That is, the player in question has up to now not caused any incidents that caused me te re-evaluate the addition of psionics to the campaign.
In light of my experiences in the other campaign, I tend to attribute this to the relative inexperience of the player in question with Psionics.
I hope, however, that the problems in the other campaign are the exception to the rule...

In the other campaign, the DM regularly voices his frustration with the various Psionic abilities of the PC, as do the player of the Warforged Fighter, and as I did myself when I was playing an artificer.

The incidents that cause this frustration:
-The Psionicist (Shaper) uses Touch Sight to trump any and all forms of invisibility employed by our opponents.
-The Psionicist uses psionic Vigor to have a seemlessly unending supply of temporary hp (in other words: preemptive self-healing)
-The Psionicist creates astral constructs that are of equal strength of the Warforged Fighter or better. While the same could be said for some summoned monsters, normal anti-summoning precautions (such as protection from evil) don't work on these since the are not summoned, but created, requiring a dispel magic/psionic to get rid of
-The Psionicist (Shaper) gets Fabricate as a lvl 4 power, while even the Artificer (a class build around crafting things) needs to obtain it as a lvl 5 infusion.

In other words: he outfights the fighter(or outsummons the summoner), outheals the healer, outcrafts the crafter, and all this with no (appearent) drawbacks.

Now, I realise: yes, this is kind of an anti-psionic rant.
However, since I have also seen a psionicist working with no power-issues whatsoever in a party, I'm guessing it's a matter of an optimised build in a group that may not always choose the most optimised combinations.

However, the fact that this is possible, and the issues that arise, suggest to me that in designing the psionic rules, the designers looked at the various types of psionics possible, giving them certain advantages and disadvantages relative to eachother, but (IMO) took insufficient time to evaluate how these abilities related to arcane or divine equivalents, leading to several situations where psionics is, without a doubt, better, in an area where the arcane/divine class should excel!
In other areas, (like self-buffing and self-healing) the ability is, indeed, limited to the psionicist himself instead of applying to the entire party, but seen from the point of the character this is not a restriction.


In conclusion, my experience with psionics is that, although it seems like a nice addition to a campaign world, other players may find themselves in situations where the psionicist is better at things their own character specializes in, and this could lead to dissatisfied players.
 

-The Psionicist (Shaper) uses Touch Sight to trump any and all forms of invisibility employed by our opponents.
Blindsight, the spell, is available from the SpC for other casters.
-The Psionicist uses psionic Vigor to have a seemlessly unending supply of temporary hp (in other words: preemptive self-healing)
Vampiric Touch, False Life, other tricks...
-The Psionicist creates astral constructs that are of equal strength of the Warforged Fighter or better. While the same could be said for some summoned monsters, normal anti-summoning precautions (such as protection from evil) don't work on these since the are not summoned, but created, requiring a dispel magic/psionic to get rid of
There are several spells that specifically target constructs if I remember correctly.
-The Psionicist (Shaper) gets Fabricate as a lvl 4 power, while even the Artificer (a class build around crafting things) needs to obtain it as a lvl 5 infusion.
But you only make mundane items with it. And only one mundane item per casting. Fabricate the power/spell is fun, but not that powerful.
In other words: he outfights the fighter(or outsummons the summoner), outheals the healer, outcrafts the crafter, and all this with no (appearent) drawbacks.
To be fair, any Tier 2 class could do that.

Shall I ring up one of my sorcerer builds to prove the point?
 
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Herzog, I can't say for sure, but I'm guessing that your problem player is disregarding the primary rule of psionics: Thou Shalt Not Spend More Power Points On One Manifestation Than Thy Manifester Level. The most common reason people think psionics are broken is along the lines of "My 3rd level psion is spending 20 PP on his mind thrust and dealing 20d10 to everyone he hits!" when said 3rd-level psion cannot spend more than 3 PP on a power without being a wilder or having Overchannel.

-The Psionicist (Shaper) uses Touch Sight to trump any and all forms of invisibility employed by our opponents.

Forms of seeing through invisibility include, but are not limited to: blindsight, touchsight, scent, tremorsense, lifesense, mindsight, and touchsight. There are many ways to gain these extra senses--several summonable monsters have scent, Mindsight is a feat, Hearing the Air is a ToB stance to let you detect invisible things, etc. Touchsight is unique to psionics, but not unique in its utility.

On the DM's side of things, point out the Darkstalker feat to him. It lets you hide from special senses as normal, and though it doesn't explicity protect against touchsight or several other senses, he could easily rule it to do so.

-The Psionicist uses psionic Vigor to have a seemlessly unending supply of temporary hp (in other words: preemptive self-healing)

As temporary HP don't stack, at any one time he could have 5*ML temp HP up, and he has to spend a standard action to restore them if he takes too much damage; with the number of PP you're running through if you want to do this, it's not nearly as effective as one would think if you're playing by the rules.

-The Psionicist creates astral constructs that are of equal strength of the Warforged Fighter or better. While the same could be said for some summoned monsters, normal anti-summoning precautions (such as protection from evil) don't work on these since the are not summoned, but created, requiring a dispel magic/psionic to get rid of

Astral constructs of your level aren't as good as a PC (and don't have the utility of summons, to boot), so if he's outfighting a warforged fighter, he's probably spending too many PP.

-The Psionicist (Shaper) gets Fabricate as a lvl 4 power, while even the Artificer (a class build around crafting things) needs to obtain it as a lvl 5 infusion.

Metacreativity powers tend to be lower-level than similar spells (for instance, minor creation is a 1st-level shaper power), but even a sorcerer gets fabricate before an artificer, so it's not really a mark against psionics but against the artificer in this case.

However, since I have also seen a psionicist working with no power-issues whatsoever in a party, I'm guessing it's a matter of an optimised build in a group that may not always choose the most optimised combinations.

Like I said, it might also be simply misreading the rules. Granted, I assume you're not a combat-focused artificer, so between you and the fighter, it's not surprising that a full caster is doing better, but I'd check on the rules issue just in case.

However, the fact that this is possible, and the issues that arise, suggest to me that in designing the psionic rules, the designers looked at the various types of psionics possible, giving them certain advantages and disadvantages relative to eachother, but (IMO) took insufficient time to evaluate how these abilities related to arcane or divine equivalents, leading to several situations where psionics is, without a doubt, better, in an area where the arcane/divine class should excel!
In other areas, (like self-buffing and self-healing) the ability is, indeed, limited to the psionicist himself instead of applying to the entire party, but seen from the point of the character this is not a restriction.

1) The only thing psionics really does better than Vancian magic is blasting; pretty much everything else is only a splatbook away.

2) You're giving the designers too much credit. ;)
 

Overall, I think the 3.5 version of psionics is the best in the game's history.

My problems with them are largely in the realm of flavor or tweeks. I'd have liked the Soulknife to have access to a few powers- a partial psi progression akin to the spellcasting of Rangers and Paladins.

Or that mindblades had been a power instead of the purview of one class.

While I can understand the reasons for the Psion's design change from 3Ed to 3.5, I actually liked the original construction more. I think that the 3Ed flavor could have been maintained with some alteration of mechanics.

IOW, minor stuff.
 

Thanks guys going great so far, I know I'm newhere so dont know what the history is like but psionics I feel doesnt get thrown around on forums that much. Now before anyone think other wise let me say i have loved psionics since i first played one in 2e. I just think I maybe trying to hold onto the past flavour too much :)
 

I've been playing psionic PCs since AD&D (a.k.a 1Ed) and always liked them. Pre 3Ed, though, they always felt they were added on at the last minute- not really balanced with the core game- but they kept getting better.

To me, the 3.X version is D&D's pinnacle of psionics, though 4Ed did do one thing that I'd been asking for since 1Ed: they integrated 4Ed psionics into the game's Core (although I think they sacrificed a lot to do so).
 

Wow. For venting my feelings on psionics, that's alot of reactions :)

Ok, so I guess a reply is in order.

First off, yes, he has overchannel.

Second, I believe he's using the Temporary Hitpoints from Vigor to fuel that overchanneling. (Not sure about that, I'd have to check)

Some specific replies:
at any one time he could have 5*ML temp HP up
That's 50 temporary hit points at lvl 10, and no cap. False life gives you a maximum of 20 thp.

There are several spells that specifically target constructs if I remember correctly.
There are. They, however attack constructs, where protection from X spells actually prevent the summoned creatures from attacking you. Big difference.

To be fair, any Tier 2 class could do that.
Im not familiar with the Tier system (seen it referenced before, but don't know what it means)
What would be examples of Tier 2 classes that would (with the same build) do all of things I mentioned the psionicist does?
 

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