Questions about the Spellthief

[Road_Runner]

So I'm really interested in this class but I have a few questions regarding gameplay and rules:

1) So I was reading this handbook...

Jack-Of-All-Trades: Fax Celestis' Guide to Spellthieves - Giant in the Playground Forums

...and I came across this text

"...Gives you concealment, which means you'll get sneak attack. Also drastically improves your survivability."

How does concealment give sneak attack? I seem unable to find the rule for it

2) I just realized that you can't flank with ranged weapons? I don't understand how a ranged rogue is supposed to sneak attack after the first round of combat without constantly being invisible. Is there some easy way to get ranged sneak attack that I'm missing?

3) I just realized that Spell Thieves only have simple weapon proficiency, and I don't see any simple ranged weapon that you can make multiple attacks with (i.e. don't have to reload as a move action). Does this guide assume that you would take martial weapon proficiency? Is there some simple ranged weapon I'm missing that could be used effectively for a Spelltheif?




All in all I'm really confused how you're supposed to pull off a ranged spelltheif. The handbook seems to advocate it through Greater Manyshot, but I don't see how you get sneak attack after the first round, and only if you win intiative.

 

[Axel]

I'll let others address point 1 as it's not something I know a lot about. Still, in terms of points 2 and 3:

The Hide skill, in the PHB, lists sniping as a valid use if you are succesfully hidden and a minimum of 10' from the nearest enemy. Essentially, make a single ranged attack then another hide check (-20 circumstance penalty). The attack is obviously a standard action, the hide check is a move action. Your full round is thus taken to "snipe" with a crossbow.

There is a feat in the PHB called Rapid Reload that lets you reload a light crossbow as a free action. Thus, you can make iterative attacks with a light crossbow. Or reload while sniping and get to fire once every round, rather than once every other round.

 

[krupintupple]

there's a feat in complete scoundrel that actually gives the spellthief a much-needed shot in the arm; it's called master spellthief and i'd really recommend checking it out.

i'd relate it to you, but i haven't been on the boards in a while, and am unsure if i'm allowed to do such a thing. anyone let me know?

 

[Road_Runner]

I'll let others address point 1 as it's not something I know a lot about. Still, in terms of points 2 and 3:

The Hide skill, in the PHB, lists sniping as a valid use if you are succesfully hidden and a minimum of 10' from the nearest enemy. Essentially, make a single ranged attack then another hide check (-20 circumstance penalty). The attack is obviously a standard action, the hide check is a move action. Your full round is thus taken to "snipe" with a crossbow.

There is a feat in the PHB called Rapid Reload that lets you reload a light crossbow as a free action. Thus, you can make iterative attacks with a light crossbow. Or reload while sniping and get to fire once every round, rather than once every other round.

Oh I completely missed the Rapid Reload feat, that would be very helpful if I could combine it with Crossbow Sniper.

As for the sniping, a -20 penalty is really hard to make, and don't you have to sit next to a corner the whole battle? I also don't see the difference between this and the normal Hide. The PHB states that: "its practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, charging, or running" but this is the same penalty as sniping.

Another problem is that as a spellthief I would probably alternate stealing/casting spells in combat, but you once you break cover to cast I don't see how you could hide again without wasting a whole round to find cover/get concealment.

I think I might understand what the Spellthief handbook author meant by what I quoted in my first question. I think they meant not that concealment gives you sneak attack, but that you could effectively hide in plain sight (at a -20 penalty of course) and not have to find a corner/wall to hide behind.

 

[Starbuck_II]

2) I just realized that you can't flank with ranged weapons? I don't understand how a ranged rogue is supposed to sneak attack after the first round of combat without constantly being invisible. Is there some easy way to get ranged sneak attack that I'm missing?

Grease, Glitterdust, etc. Grease causts people to balance (you need 5 ranks in Balance skill to balance and keep Dex to AC).
Glittterdust is a blinding effect (will save negate).
Both blind people and people balancing with 5 ranks are denied Dex to AC.
You can sneak attack people denied Dex to AC.

Buy a wand of Grease (they don't have to fail save to lack 5 ranks)

3) I just realized that Spell Thieves only have simple weapon proficiency, and I don't see any simple ranged weapon that you can make multiple attacks with (i.e. don't have to reload as a move action). Does this guide assume that you would take martial weapon proficiency? Is there some simple ranged weapon I'm missing that could be used effectively for a Spelltheif?

Daggers, Darts, Javelins, etc (need quick draw)- they can be made multiple attacks with.
In addition, buy multiple ligtht or heavy crossbows (shoot once and drop them). This allows multiple attacks. Pick them up after battle.

Or use a non-profiency bow (or be an elf and count as proficient).

All in all I'm really confused how you're supposed to pull off a ranged spelltheif. The handbook seems to advocate it through Greater Manyshot, but I don't see how you get sneak attack after the first round, and only if you win intiative.

He said this:
Greater Manyshot plus a number of flatfooted or Dex-denied foes means that you can sneak attack a lot of them and thieve from them all at the same time.

So as long as you deny Dex to AC to will be able to sneak attack them.

 

[radmod]

I only scanned the previous posts and didn't see an answer to #1, so forgive me if someone has already answered.

The question you asked is in reference to the spell Blink (listed as a Core Spell in the handbook):
Blink:

You strike as an invisible creature (with a +2 bonus on attack rolls), denying your target any Dexterity bonus to AC.

combine that with sneak attack:

deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not)

So if you use the spell Blink you can sneak attack.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Why on earth would anyone other than a Scout (who needs to move 10+ ft to use his special attack) ever get Greater Manyshot? The penalties are awful, the BAB you need to get a decent number of shots off is in the "Oh, you have medium BAB? Too bad, so sad" tier, and it costs a whole lot of feats that you really can't afford to spend.

As far as your Crossbow Sniper idea goes, also check out Hand Crossbow Focus feat from Drow of the Underdark. Not sure if only rogue gets proficiency with it or spellthief does, too, but that feat is basically Weapon Focus (annoyingly required for Crossbow Sniper) and Rapid Reload in one, so it saves you a feat. Now, hand crossbow is a horrible, horrible, disgustingly overpriced weapon, don't get me wrong. But when your damage is coming from sneak attack and you need to be within 30 ft (60 with Crossbow Sniper) to use it anyway, the abysmal damage die and range increment are manageable. And you very likely will be feat starved, so it's a valid idea to look into.

To help with sniping, there's the Concealed Ambush feat in dragon mag (and crystalkeep's feat database). It shaves a whole 10 off of the sniping penalty for hide. The pre-reqs make it a mid/high level feat, though. And quite frankly, if you're doing ranged combat, you're doing it to full attack. Don't give that up. Use spells that others have mentioned to get Blink or greater invisibility or make your enemies blinded or flatfooted. And full attack. With Rapid Shot.

 

[Road_Runner]

Why on earth would anyone other than a Scout (who needs to move 10+ ft to use his special attack) ever get Greater Manyshot? The penalties are awful, the BAB you need to get a decent number of shots off is in the "Oh, you have medium BAB? Too bad, so sad" tier, and it costs a whole lot of feats that you really can't afford to spend.

As far as your Crossbow Sniper idea goes, also check out Hand Crossbow Focus feat from Drow of the Underdark. Not sure if only rogue gets proficiency with it or spellthief does, too, but that feat is basically Weapon Focus (annoyingly required for Crossbow Sniper) and Rapid Reload in one, so it saves you a feat. Now, hand crossbow is a horrible, horrible, disgustingly overpriced weapon, don't get me wrong. But when your damage is coming from sneak attack and you need to be within 30 ft (60 with Crossbow Sniper) to use it anyway, the abysmal damage die and range increment are manageable. And you very likely will be feat starved, so it's a valid idea to look into.

To help with sniping, there's the Concealed Ambush feat in dragon mag (and crystalkeep's feat database). It shaves a whole 10 off of the sniping penalty for hide. The pre-reqs make it a mid/high level feat, though. And quite frankly, if you're doing ranged combat, you're doing it to full attack. Don't give that up. Use spells that others have mentioned to get Blink or greater invisibility or make your enemies blinded or flatfooted. And full attack. With Rapid Shot.

I'm glad to see that you also don't think highly of Greater Manyshot; I was under the impression that there was something useful about it I was completely missing, because it looked pretty bad on paper to me too.

Thanks for pointing out the Hand Crossbow Focus feat. That wouldn't save me a feat from getting Rapid Reload because spelltheifs don't have hand crossbow proficiency, but it would save me a feat if I replaced Rapid Shot with TWF (because Point Blank shot is useless if I'm sneak attacking from 60 feet away). The only issue with this is that then I couldn't take use the Concealed Ambush/Manyshot strategy because Manyshot requires Rapid Shot and Concealed Ambush requires you not to be making a full attack, but it seems like that isn't a very effective build anyway.

If I found another way to get sneak attacks in could you get an extra attack for each crossbow with TWF and Rapid Shot? I doubt I could pull it off (that's 5 feats alone, not counting Crossbow Sniper or Precise Shot), but it would be nice getting enough attacks in with my medium BAB.

 

[Thanael]

removed

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'm glad to see that you also don't think highly of Greater Manyshot; I was under the impression that there was something useful about it I was completely missing, because it looked pretty bad on paper to me too.

Yeah, it really just doesn't stack up to Rapid Shot in almost all situations. I can think of specific niche builds where Greater Manyshot is better, like a Raptoran (or other 0 ECL flying race) using flyby attack. Generally, it's bad, though.

Thanks for pointing out the Hand Crossbow Focus feat. That wouldn't save me a feat from getting Rapid Reload because spelltheifs don't have hand crossbow proficiency, but it would save me a feat if I replaced Rapid Shot with TWF (because Point Blank shot is useless if I'm sneak attacking from 60 feet away). The only issue with this is that then I couldn't take use the Concealed Ambush/Manyshot strategy because Manyshot requires Rapid Shot and Concealed Ambush requires you not to be making a full attack, but it seems like that isn't a very effective build anyway.

Don't waste a feat on proficieny, it's worse in every single way than a light crossbow, and you can also fire light crossbows in one hand as light weapons anyway. And both require a hand to reload, so hand crossbow offers nothing special if you're spending an extra feat on it. If you dipped rogue a few levels, then consider it, otherwise don't.

I think you should go for Rapid Shot over TWF. Some argue that TWF's reduced penalties only apply to melee attacks (a view I don't agree with, but your DM might). Also, a Rapid Shot Xbow user can use a shield for more AC, focus his gold on only one weapon to enhance, and ends up with the same amount of attacks as the guy with a xbow in each hand anyway. And...face facts, you WILL need Point Blank Shot. It's required for Precise Shot as well. There IS a +1 weapon enhancement in Magic Item Compendium called Precise to be treated as having the feat when using that weapon. But getting a +1 enhancement on two weapons (you can't take Rapid without PBS, remember?) gets atrociously expensive very fast. One possible solution, I will say is a skill trick from...DMG 2 I think. Look for it in crystalkeep's skills and actions pdf. If you have a party member with Precise Shot, you can learn the teamwork benefit so the rest of the group gains half the feat's benefit (-2 to fire into melee instead of -4) for no real cost. If your group make-up leaves that an option, look into it. One final point in favor of PBS: Maybe you won't be within 30 ft the first round. But you'll only be taking 5 ft steps while full attacking, and most enemies will want to close that distance. So you will in fact frequently end up within 30 ft whether you want to or not.

If I found another way to get sneak attacks in could you get an extra attack for each crossbow with TWF and Rapid Shot? I doubt I could pull it off (that's 5 feats alone, not counting Crossbow Sniper or Precise Shot), but it would be nice getting enough attacks in with my medium BAB.

A spellcaster ally and/or Use Magic Device are your best bets. Grease, Blink, Greater Blink, Improved Invisibility, and some others all work well to deny your foe dex to AC. If you have a party Druid, the Blinding Spittle spell in Spell Compendium (level 2) offers a no-save blindness if he can make the difficult attack roll (touch attack at -4 is hard at early levels). All it takes is a round washing the eyes out to remove, but that's a round of SA you didn't have, and some monsters will either be too stupid or not have any water immediately available to do that. Just elaborating on that specific spell since no one mentioned it yet.

Something that's become pretty much automatic for any rogue build I do now is a Swordsage dip. I like to do it at levels 9 and 10 to get immediate access to level 3 maneuvers, but you can do it sooner if needed. The reason for 2 levels is that you really want Assassin's Stance (+2d6 sneak attack!), but you can only pick up a level 1 stance at Swordsage 1 (and there's plenty of good options). You can spend a feat on the stance, but I'd rather use my level 9 feat on Adaptive Style (to repeatedly spam some awesome maneuvers the same combat) or Shadow Blade (if I was making a melee or thrown weapon build; not applicable for you). The maneuvers themselves are useful. Cloak of Deception is a swift action for Greater Invisiblity until end of your turn, for example. I like the level 1 Distracting Ember for a swift action flanking buddy, it's worthwhile if you ever get into any melee at all. You could do the Unarmed Swordsage adaptation listed so that you have a melee attack to threaten with (unarmed strike) even with your hands full of crossbows, if necessary.

Oh, to answer your question...simple hiding is lost on the first attack, but before a foe has acted that combat or any other method that lets you retain sneak attack conditions does in fact let you full attack with it. And don't forget the simple Haste buff spell for an extra attack (and +1 to hit). One fun thing to do with an archer is to dip Barbarian for the Whirling Frenzy ability, taking Extra Rage to get it 3/day (the level 2 Druid spell Blood Frenzy from Spell Compendium also works and is extremely "wand friendly" if you need to do it yourself). Whirling lets you take a -2 to get an extra attack, similar to flurry of blows, but with ANY weapon!