Playable Vampire: From Level 0 Up.

[Sylrae]

Those of you who follow my posts here will know that I'm on a kick of making things functional to players, and think that everything should be designed that way, even if it's NOT meant as a player option.

That being said.

I redesigned the Vampire, into a LA 0 Template and a 13 Level Template Class to flesh out the rest of the abilities. The purpose, is to have the vampire be an option without being a gamebreaker. A player should be able to seamlessly become a vampire without gaining multiple levels. He should then have to slowly gain levels to get the rest of the abilities.

I used Upper Krust's system to balance out the numbers in the class.

A few concerns I'm having. The CR on the template was drastically reduced in the PF Bestiary. that makes me worry that the class portion may be priced too expensive, making it far inferior to the player classes.

I may be worried about nothing, but I was hoping I could get some opinions on that.

I did the balancing using tables and spreadsheets, and they could go up if necessary for examination.

This vampire should be a little more reasonable. It has more vampire weaknesses, and starts with alot less power. Initially they don't get any more powerful; the drawbacks even it out, and they gain power like a player character.

They gain feats, and attribute bonuses the same way as any other class. It's factored into the level costs.

The Vampire should be playable for player characters without breaking the game. I'm doing these according to the order I need them in my own game.
(That means the Erinyes comes next).

EDIT: The Vampire here is now the 10 Level Vampire. It was the better of the two, and I decided putting the most recent version of the class in the first post was a good idea.

 

[Celebrim]

Is it going to sparkle in the sunlight?

In full disclosure, I played Vampire: the Masquerade for several years.

 

[ValhallaGH]

There's an editing error in the Fast Healing entry for the template.
"It is not uncommon for them to pretend to be longer if they believe it will give them a better chance to escape."
Longer than what?

The Daylight Immolation and Running Water both reference Turn Resistance, but the class only provides Channel Resist / Channel Energy Resist. Yeah, yeah, same thing, blah blah, unify your language.

On first look it seems okay, though 13 levels is a lot of investment with relatively small returns. The fact that you can take whichever levels you want whenever you want helps a lot. Still, compressing it to 10 levels would be good, especially since most of the features simply compensate for your "I'm undead" squishiness.

Is it going to sparkle in the sunlight?

Yes.*

*By "sparkle" I mean burn like a bonfire.

 

[Sylrae]

Is it going to sparkle in the sunlight?
In full disclosure, I played Vampire: the Masquerade for several years.

Yes.*
*By "sparkle" I mean burn like a bonfire.

The Way It Should Be.

There's an editing error in the Fast Healing entry for the template.
"It is not uncommon for them to pretend to be longer if they believe it will give them a better chance to escape."
Longer than what?

Sorry; thought that was clear. Pretend to be dead. I added it to the file.

The Daylight Immolation and Running Water both reference Turn Resistance, but the class only provides Channel Resist / Channel Energy Resist. Yeah, yeah, same thing, blah blah, unify your language.

I based it on an old Vampire Template I did, with heavy editing. You Make a Good Point though. I'll go hunt those down and replace them.

On first look it seems okay, though 13 levels is a lot of investment with relatively small returns. The fact that you can take whichever levels you want whenever you want helps a lot. Still, compressing it to 10 levels would be good, especially since most of the features simply compensate for your "I'm undead" squishiness.

Undead arent squishy in pathfinder (why i included the type.) They get CHA to HP.

I'll put up the spreadsheets I used to balance things. the 13 levels should put them on par with the 3.5e classes, I'm not sure how much stronger to make them as a pathfinder class. Anyways, Give me 5 minutes and I'll put up the spreadsheet and a pdf with revised Turn Resistance and pretend to be dead, then I'll let you guys look again.

I can condense it, I'm just not sure how much to condense it by.

Edit: Updated, and added the spreadsheet. It uses alot of autocalculating, so you should be able to play with a few variables to see what would happen.
AS-IS, by the numbers, it's exactly balanced against 3.5e core classes. Which makes it a bit too weak for pathfinder.
For further condensing, we can drop some of the numbers bonuses. Of course, those levels are all optional (except for the really weak one you have to take to qualify for Mist Shape)

Let me know what you think.

 

[ValhallaGH]

The Way It Should Be.

Agreed.

Sorry; thought that was clear. Pretend to be dead. I added it to the file.

Oh, it was clear. I was making a small joke.

You Make a Good Point though.

I'm glad you agree.

Undead arent squishy in pathfinder (why i included the type.) They get CHA to HP.

I missed that when I re-read it. (Maybe I've been reading too many creature types lately.)

I can condense it, I'm just not sure how much to condense it by.

I still say dropping it to 10 or 11 levels would be just about right. Both from a "power" perspective and from a "leveling up my character" perspective. But opinions will differ.

 

[Sylrae]

Here's the class condensed into 10 levels.

It looks alot better in terms of the "leveling up my character" perspective, but I think it may be a tad too powerful, judging by the numbers.

Take a look at it now and tell me what you think.

Here are the condensed levels pdf and balance spreadsheet.

Does it seem playable?
Is it better than the other pathfinder classes (It should be the same power).
Does it make a good vampire? I think it does, but opinions are helpful.

I didnt like how alot of the stuff worked on the original vampire. Auto-Death in 2 rounds by daylight? Bursting into flame sounds better, and it means powerful vampires last longer. Likewise for running water. And Holy Symbols.

Did you ever notice that via MM and Bestiary, Vampires don't need to drink blood?

I know I've heard the argument of "people dont need to eat in D&D either", but food is easy to come by. The blood, not as much.

Anyways, In-Depth Criticism would be nice.

Also; this should be compatible with Pathfinder and Trailblazer. I left out my houserules that would stop it from being compatible.

[Edit]Another Thought:
With the exception of levels 9 and 10, which need to be combined together to equal the proper amount of power, every class level is balanced by itself.

Every other class level is worth almost the same as eachother, with a small margin of error.(.07 of a level at most I believe).
Is there any reason to not allow players to take the same class level multiple times? You could end up with drastically different vampires, who are all similar, but unique (and should be the same power level).
Maybe Make additional vampire levels, with different powers? (Or you could just say this is the most a vampire can get, the 10 levels, unless they take the Master Vampire PrC).

Just a thought.

This is the type of design I've been saying people should use for their monsters. It turns 1 monster into a large array of similar monsters. It alleviates the need for lesser and greater versions of the same thing. The Greater version will just be further progressed into the class.

This is what I'd like to make a whole Bestiary of.

But the vampire is just the start, since one of my players who is new to D&D was going on and on about vampires, and I've always been dissatisfied with the D&D Vampire.

Plus I already had an old set of 6 vampire templates I did.
[Edit] The Class has been moved to the first post in the thread.[/Edit]

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Hi, Sylrae,

Here's the class condensed into 10 levels.

It looks alot better in terms of the "leveling up my character" perspective, but I think it may be a tad too powerful, judging by the numbers.

Take a look at it now and tell me what you think.

Here are the condensed levels pdf and balance spreadsheet.

Does it seem playable?

Yes, it does. I like what I see. Haven't analyzed it for balnce, myself, though.

Is it better than the other pathfinder classes (It should be the same power).

I don't know. I use Pathfinder as supplemental material for 3.5.

Does it make a good vampire? I think it does, but opinions are helpful.

I actually quite like what I see, Sylrae.

I didnt like how alot of the stuff worked on the original vampire. Auto-Death in 2 rounds by daylight? Bursting into flame sounds better, and it means powerful vampires last longer. Likewise for running water. And Holy Symbols.

This part, right here, is the main reason that I replied. I really think stuff like this should have been part of the original vampire. I think the idea of burning/acid damage from sunlight/water is brilliant. The only alternative that I could offer is that maybe it should do Charisma damage/drain, instead of HP damage. Here's why. Hit Points, to me, represent the victim's skill in avoiding damage to some degree. Going to direct Charisma damage/drain negates the skill aspect of the exposure to sunlight/water. The problem with drain is that the vampire couldn't recover without magic (I don't think, anyway). However, this is just something I wanted to share. Using Hit Point damage works well, too.

Did you ever notice that via MM and Bestiary, Vampires don't need to drink blood?

I know I've heard the argument of "people dont need to eat in D&D either", but food is easy to come by. The blood, not as much.

Yes, I've noticed that. Glad you fixed it!

Anyways, In-Depth Criticism would be nice.

Also; this should be compatible with Pathfinder and Trailblazer. I left out my houserules that would stop it from being compatible.

Thanks, again, for sharing this!

 

[ValhallaGH]

The note for level 10 references a class level 12. Minor point but I'm trying to be helpful.
You'll also want to revisit the Final Thoughts section now that it is a 10 level class.

The class looks pretty good. Plenty of abilities for each level (excepting 9 and 10) and plenty of power per level (excepting 9) without being too strong. It's a touch bland, but balancing a template often is.

Conceptually, I really like the options this provides. I'd recommend not allowing repetition of specific levels until all 10 levels have been taken. The idea being that before you can become a specialist vampire, you have to have all the vampire basics covered. But it's your game and you should do what works best for you and yours.

 

[Sylrae]

Thanks Hrothgar!
I think that's the most positive response I've ever gotten to a post/thread here.

Cha damage for Sunlight/Water
Personally I treat HP as physical damage, simply because thats the way it gets narrated. I'm not a big fan of the ever-growing hit points, but without a major system overhaul, they have to do.
As for Charisma Damage, when you starve it does charisma damage. When you feed it restores that charisma damage. If you wanted to convert it to CHA Damage for sunlight and water, then just make the feed ability restore them.

Inspiration/Goals
For inspiration, I've read alot of vampire things, but many are outside the powerlevel I was going for. The vampires in Anita Blake are massively beefy, and there's already a decent Vampire booklet based on them (It wasn't quite what I wanted). Buffy was a good start honestly. The vampires are pretty mundane there, and have few freaky powers. That's something I wanted at low levels. As for the Rain being a type of running water, that idea came from soul reaver 1. I always loved the vampires in that setting, and at one point I did up all the clans as an alternate set of clans for Vampire:The Masquerade revised, to run a soul reaver game > Unfortunately I lost the file I did it in. Obviously some of the Ideas are inspired by Vampire: The Masquerade. I considered adding a Blood-Pool Mechanic, but I thought that might be too much complication and I decided to tie it to existing mechanics instead.

Vampire Variety
I'm thinking that the vampire needs a larger set of powers to draw from.
They should have a levitation-based flight they can learn, a-la Anne-Rice. Maybe add-back in Alternate Shape, Or Telekinesis (Also Anne Rice). Haste could make a good Vampire Ability (Vampire:The Masquerade/Anne Rice), as could Earthmelding (Masquerade, Gangel), Growing Claws(Same), HIPS(Obfuscate, Masquerade), True Seeing (Auspex), then Throw in Charm(Presence), The ability for a higher cap on Spawn controlles, and a Fear Aura(Presence). Very few vampires would have all of them, but you'd have a wide variety of possible vampiric powers to choose from. Any thoughts on those? With a large variety of these, the number of total levels in the class would increase, but virtually nobody would take ALL of them.
You'd have a huge number of different powers on each vampire, but all of them would follow the same template and Class, in differing ways.

Vulnerability to Fire?
I toyed with the Idea of making Vampires Vulnerable to fire, but the number of powers I had to give it to even out the weaknesses was already starting to be a bit much. You guys think it's worth the effort? Or maybe just have the fire vulnerability replace the water vulnerability for aquatic vampires?

Monster Manual Commentary
I think part of the reason they didn't have to drink blood was that as a single throw-away encounter, it doesn't matter as much if they have to do it or just do it for fun. Making the solution means having a mechanic that only really applies to vampires. I'm okay with that. Some people might not like the added complication.

ValhallaGH:
Corrections
Thanks, I'll be sure to go fix these little things. They may be minor, but theyre still helpful suggestions.
*Oh. I think I just realized that I need to make a small adjustment to feed. I think presently it doesnt mention that they can feed to restore hit points.

Blandness
There does seem to be a bit of blandness. The only way I could get rid of that would be to drop the numeric increases for more unique abilities. That, or introduce the abilities mentioned above as other possible vampire powers. Still Keep 5 or so 'bland' levels, And come up with different powers to fill all the other levels. Maybe up to 20 total.

Covering the Basics
I agree that before becoming a specialist vampire you should have the basics covered. But the way I was planning it, and the way I envisioned it, is that you have the basics covered as soon as you go from Vampire Spawn, to vampire (taking the first level in the class) and gaining your create spawn ability.
You have your better strength/speed etc, the ability to make more vampires, Channel Resistance, and all the vampire weaknesses. I kindof see everything past that as specializing.
It's a 10 level class at the moment, but I see a 'Vampire Lord' only having 6 or 7 levels in this. Essentially, you take your first vampire level, and BAM, youre a vampire. what type of vampire you'll be should depend on which levels you take.

Just a note you guys might find tantalizingly evil
You may have missed this, but: I made it so vampires can't make spawn by accident, and made Create Spawn be more scary. The party cleric is turned into a vampire? No worries raise him from the dead tomorrow and... Oh my god! He's getting up!

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Sylrae,

Concerning Vampire Variety...

What about feats that a vampire could take to gain some of the alternate abilities that you mention? Maybe the vampire gains access to Vampiric Feats and can select one of them every so many levels or choose them when they would otherwise gain other feats?