Seeking comments regarding tweaked base classes (Fighter & Ranger)

In preparation for a long overdue 3.5 campaign with my old gaming group, I started fiddling with the martial classes to make them more interesting. I'm not trying to "balance" martial and spellcasting classes - it's been been clearly pointed out by many people that have looked long and hard into the issue as something quite difficult to do without redoing the entire system.

This started as a way to add more interesting abilities to the fighter than just "bonus feat", and then I thought that something similar should be done for the ranger, so I added a few abilities from Midnight's Wildlander class, and expanded the list of bonus feats in a manner similar to Pathfinder's.

I intend to do something like this for the paladin (maybe borrow some of the changes from Pathfinder), and would like to listen to what you think about the work done so far. As I said, what I'm aiming for is to make the classes a bit more interesting and balanced with each other - the martial classes, that is.

Thanks for your time :)
 

Attachments


log in or register to remove this ad

The fighter is still bland and weak. I recommend checking out the thread on this forum about the Project Phoenix fighter - you can get some ideas of how to make it more powerful without having to overhaul the system.

The ranger doesn't get much, although the new abilities are nice. I would change Hunter's Strike to a sneak attack, since it's effectively what it is. I just thought of doing it for my ranger last night - they're wilderness scouts, and striking from ambush (as you noted) is one of their talents. The mechanics of your ability, though, contradict the flavor - striking from ambush means the ranger is unseen until he hits. In this case, he would have to be hidden or invisible before he struck. Add this restriction, and you can make the strike unlimited times/day - this would enable him to conduct hit-and-run attacks on enemies by popping out of hiding, striking, then disappearing again.
 

I like some of your changes.

A couple questions & comments:
The ranger still seems to get the short end of the stick. The biggest benefit seems to be the increased level of animal companion, which is now druid level.

I would suggest letting Danger Sense increase all 3 at every 3 levels; it's less to keep track of, and not overpowering.

I like the choice of combat style feats. You should list the source of the ones that don't appear in the PHB.

As for the fighter: a possible 9-20/x2 crit range at level 15! Or a 15-20/x4 crit range!

Because attack bonus usually scales very favourably against AC at higher levels anyway, I would add something more useful onto the irresistable strike, something that will boost damage output. Maybe adding his Dex mod to damage rolls for all those touch attacks.

What type of bonus is the AC bonus granted by "AC bonus"?

Perserverance: Do you add your Con bonus to Fort saves (again) as well? You should clarify.
 

[FONT=&quot]People just don’t get what’s really wrong with the core Fighter:[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot]- Lacking skill-wise, action-wise & options-wise.[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot]- Too much gear dependency[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot]- THE frontliner archetype, but with absolutely no robustness.[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot]- Heavy feat mastery is required just to make it barely playable without some serious DM cuddling.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The one thing that the Fighter is reasonably adequate at (but not more than that) is hit, dmg & AC. Raw combat stats. But that’s the last thing I’d focus o when sitting down to remake the primary what’s supposed to be the primary warrior class of the game.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]And here’s my impression regarding your Fighter:[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Not so detrimental, but why you stopped with Weapon Spec is beyond me.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Perseverance is nice, but definitely not enough in my view. [/FONT][FONT=&quot](Imp.)Uncanny Dodge & Mettle (maybe Evasion for the Light style, but definitely not with heavy armor) seem in order.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Ignore DR, Irresistible strike & Brutal strike have a magical feel to them (once per day; duration) and don’t seem appropriate to a mundane class. Furthermore, combat maneuvers that are applicable #uses/day make absolutely no sense, given that unless you suffer a condition, you enter each combat fully refreshed (other than HP, which have no effect on #uses – and neither do conditions).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Light style is significantly superior to the Heavy style (try to figure out for yourself why). If anything, I’d mesh them together somehow.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

Dead levels (nuff said)[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

No features that grant more actions, better overall battlefield understanding or the ability to cope with conditions/effects.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

No real unique actions that are totally beyond the capabilities of other classes (notice that all your new features amount to augmentations, not unique actions).[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

Not enough class skills. The absolute minimum should be to add Listen & Spot (for the guardian/defender role) and Survival (soldiers should have the option of being able to manage on their own outdoors).[/FONT][FONT=&quot]



Regarding your Ranger:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]


To make Favored Enemy really count, make all prev groups gain +2 whenever gaining a new group. Almost every Ranger remake discussion I’ve seen ends up with this one as one of the conclusions.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

As far as combat style goes, to this day I can’t figure what kind of an idiot had decided that TWF relays hunting in any way.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Making a list of feats to choose from was a good idea, but it should revolve around range combat only (the very essence of hunting).[/FONT]

Regarding Hunter’s Strike, I don’t think it should be applicable only to orc scouts.
I can see why orcs would be the motivation for this ability, but they quickly stop being relevant with level progression. You could make it work with any scout and I see no reason to make #uses per day limits. I’d even go as far as giving rangers SA progression as the indicated levels.

[FONT=&quot]Also, there’s almost a consensus on the various boards that a Ranger’s Animal Companion feature should trail 3 levels behind the Druid’s.[/FONT]

 

The fighter is still bland and weak. I recommend checking out the thread on this forum about the Project Phoenix fighter - you can get some ideas of how to make it more powerful without having to overhaul the system.
Thanks. I've checked the Project Phoenix fighter and it certainly does add a further level of customization.
My intention with the changes I made to the fighter (though bland and weak ;)) was to add a kind of "template" to the base 3.5 fighter with optional abilities as generic as possible, so as to accommodate any kind of concept without stepping too much on other classes niches (such as the swashbuckler), while being complimentary to them. So a multiclass Light fighter/swashbuckler could be an interesting combination, without being redundant.
Whatever other options a player would want could be achieved by feats, using an extended list that included sources such as the Complete books, the PHBII and some of the new ones in Pathfinder, while freeing a couple of slots by providing the obligatory Weapon Focus & Specialization for free. I should also mention that I was planning on increasing the number of feats available to every character as Pathfinder did (one every other level), so the fighter would have a new feat to choose every level.

The ranger doesn't get much, although the new abilities are nice. I would change Hunter's Strike to a sneak attack, since it's effectively what it is. I just thought of doing it for my ranger last night - they're wilderness scouts, and striking from ambush (as you noted) is one of their talents. The mechanics of your ability, though, contradict the flavor - striking from ambush means the ranger is unseen until he hits. In this case, he would have to be hidden or invisible before he struck. Add this restriction, and you can make the strike unlimited times/day - this would enable him to conduct hit-and-run attacks on enemies by popping out of hiding, striking, then disappearing again.
I see your point, and I admit that I basically copied the Open Game Content from the Midnight book :o. But it seem to me that changing it for a sneak attack ability would overlap with the Scout ambush ability (that's another thing - I intended to allow optional base classes to my players). Also, the way you propose the ranger to act with a sneak attack ability would benefit mostly those who focused on archery, and leave the dual-wielding rangers a bit high-and-dry, as they would have to rely on their opponents being flat-footed, or have an ally flanking them to be able to deal the extra damage.
The Hunter's Strike ability, while more limited than a sneak attack, gives the character more control over when to deal the extra damage, imho.

I like some of your changes.

A couple questions & comments:
The ranger still seems to get the short end of the stick. The biggest benefit seems to be the increased level of animal companion, which is now druid level.

I would suggest letting Danger Sense increase all 3 at every 3 levels; it's less to keep track of, and not overpowering.
You're right. I also don't think that would be a big issue. I'll go change it now. :)

I like the choice of combat style feats. You should list the source of the ones that don't appear in the PHB.
Yes, I should do that. I was compiling a big "Feat Compendium" document from all the relevant WotC sourcebooks, plus some of Pathfinder's new feats to have as a general reference. So that's why there's no clear reference to where the feats come from. :o

As for the fighter: a possible 9-20/x2 crit range at level 15! Or a 15-20/x4 crit range!
Assuming the use of the Improved Crititcal feat or a Keen weapon, yup, those would be the numbers. :)

Because attack bonus usually scales very favourably against AC at higher levels anyway, I would add something more useful onto the irresistable strike, something that will boost damage output. Maybe adding his Dex mod to damage rolls for all those touch attacks.
Well, the idea I had behind the two fighting styles was that the Light style would provide more frequent critical hits (as if finding weak spots in the enemy), while the Heavy style would have less frequent crits, but deal more damage with each one. I didn't add a damage bonus to the Light style because I figured that would be accomplished with weapons and magic items' bonus.
However, seeing the above numbers, it seems that a Light fighter wouldn't have that much of an advantage over a Heavy fighter regarding landing critical hits, would he? :erm:

Originally, I intended the Heavy fighter to increase the weapon damage die instead of the critical step, but then I thought that dealing huge amounts of damage dice with each hit would step over the barbarian's role too much...

What type of bonus is the AC bonus granted by "AC bonus"?
It's an armor bonus. I detailed it in the ability description, but I agree that I should note it in the table.

Perserverance: Do you add your Con bonus to Fort saves (again) as well? You should clarify.
Yes, the Perseverance ability would be the Fighter's equivalent of "Divine Grace" :)

Thanks for the comments. Keep them coming! :) I will post the modified paladin as soon as I get to typing it down adequately.
 

People just don’t get what’s really wrong with the core Fighter:
- Lacking skill-wise, action-wise & options-wise.
- Too much gear dependency
- THE frontliner archetype, but with absolutely no robustness.
- Heavy feat mastery is required just to make it barely playable without some serious DM cuddling.

The one thing that the Fighter is reasonably adequate at (but not more than that) is hit, dmg & AC. Raw combat stats. But that’s the last thing I’d focus o when sitting down to remake the primary what’s supposed to be the primary warrior class of the game.
Oh, I've read about the general consensus regarding the fighter's shortcomings, and I've been shown enough evidence about that. :)
But, like I said, my intention was not to make the fighter a balanced class against spellcasters, but a bit more interesting and balanced against other martial classes.

And here’s my impression regarding your Fighter:
Not so detrimental, but why you stopped with Weapon Spec is beyond me.
Well, I should have noted it before, but I was planning on using Pathfinder's feat progression, so the fighter would have an available feat every level. I felt that WF & WS were pretty much obligatory for a fighter, but he could use the big amount of feats he would later receive to purchase the rest of the feat chain.

Perseverance is nice, but definitely not enough in my view. (Imp.)Uncanny Dodge & Mettle (maybe Evasion for the Light style, but definitely not with heavy armor) seem in order.
I had previously added Mettle instead of Perseverance, but someone rightly told me that the character would still need to success at his Will save to receive its benefits, which didn't change the underlying situation of the fighter's poor Will save bonus. So that's why I changed the ability.
As for the other ones you mention, wouldn't adding them hurt the barbarian and rogue's role too much?

Ignore DR, Irresistible strike & Brutal strike have a magical feel to them (once per day; duration) and don’t seem appropriate to a mundane class. Furthermore, combat maneuvers that are applicable #uses/day make absolutely no sense, given that unless you suffer a condition, you enter each combat fully refreshed (other than HP, which have no effect on #uses – and neither do conditions).
Well, yes, I can see your point, but I wanted to add the changes within the framework of what I perceived as 3.5's system. I mean, barbarians' rage is also a #use/day ability, isn't it?

The Light style is significantly superior to the Heavy style (try to figure out for yourself why). If anything, I’d mesh them together somehow.
Could be. I won't say that I crunched numbers extensively regarding those aspects. :o

Dead levels (nuff said)
Well, with PF's feat progression, dead levels would at least provide a new feat. :)

No features that grant more actions, better overall battlefield understanding or the ability to cope with conditions/effects.
No arguments there.

No real unique actions that are totally beyond the capabilities of other classes (notice that all your new features amount to augmentations, not unique actions).
You're right again. This is because I wanted to stay within my understanding of 3.5 mechanics. That's why I started the thread. ;)

Not enough class skills. The absolute minimum should be to add Listen & Spot (for the guardian/defender role) and Survival (soldiers should have the option of being able to manage on their own outdoors).
I agree that I didn't expand the class skill list a lot, but I added Profession, and the player's choice of two skills, so as to customize it a bit (plus the obligatory 4+Int skill points).
And I also intended to condense some of the skills for my campaign (Listen+Spot=Perception; Athletics; Acrobatics, and so on). So overall, the fighter would have been better off than it seems. :)

Regarding your Ranger:
To make Favored Enemy really count, make all prev groups gain +2 whenever gaining a new group. Almost every Ranger remake discussion I’ve seen ends up with this one as one of the conclusions.
I'll confess that I hadn't thought much about that. I'll take a look at it.

As far as combat style goes, to this day I can’t figure what kind of an idiot had decided that TWF relays hunting in any way.Making a list of feats to choose from was a good idea, but it should revolve around range combat only (the very essence of hunting).
Beats me. I just didn't want to take that away from whatever Drizzt fans could be out there. :p

Regarding Hunter’s Strike, I don’t think it should be applicable only to orc scouts. I can see why orcs would be the motivation for this ability, but they quickly stop being relevant with level progression. You could make it work with any scout and I see no reason to make #uses per day limits. I’d even go as far as giving rangers SA progression as the indicated levels.
Well, the "orc scout" part was a bit of fluff leftover from the Midnight book I copied the OGC text from, and I think that even there it was just an example. The ability applies to whatever enemy the ranger chooses.
As for the sneak attack option, see my (pseudo) reasoning above.

Also, there’s almost a consensus on the various boards that a Ranger’s Animal Companion feature should trail 3 levels behind the Druid’s.
Really? In the threads I read it was always mentioned that the ranger's animal companion was almost useless for this same difference with the druid's :erm:
 

Interesting stuff. I'll ignore the other posters for the time being.

Ranger:
I see that you simply took most of the existing features as written and included them directly. That's fine, and comfortable for your players, making it even better.
Favored Enemy: Your list of possible opponents stops with Humanoids. Why? If this is just an editing error then so be it, but if it's an intentional choice I'd love to know why outsiders and undead were removed from the list.
As far as the bonuses are concerned, either use the existing system or give all opponents the same bonus equal to the current maximum (+2 / +4 / +6 / +8, etc.). Do not return to the 3E stupidity of having to pick your most awesome favored enemy before the campaign starts (i.e. all previous bonuses go up).

Combat Style: I like what you've done here. Lots of options without being too limiting. One thing you may consider is allowing a ranger to have access to both styles, allowing them to mix it up as they deem most appropriate using their very limited number of Combat Style feats.

Danger Sense: Good 1E nod. I don't see an issue with this either way (as is, or all bonuses increase at the same rate). For unity of design reasons, whatever you do with Favored Enemy should be done with Danger Sense.

Animal Companion: The Druid animal companion is a free combat NPC, effectively doubling the Druid's actions. It's too powerful.
Conversely, the Ranger animal companion (at 1/2 level) was too weak to be useful, even as a mount. A compromise of Level -3 can work.
Personally, I'm a fan of the Druid / Ranger having to convince the local wildlife to assist them (using their Wild Empathy class feature and some role playing ability) rather than giving them a constant magical meat shield / pet. Trailblazer did this, and I've enjoyed the flavor change and ability to keep it useful without being over-powered.

Spell: Why not give them access to the Druid spell list? Keep the casting limits where they are, but expand (and improve) their options. There are not any / many spells on the Ranger list that aren't on the Druid list. And Rangers with Flame Strike at 14th level is not broken by any definition, but is pretty cool.

Hunter's Strike: I'd suggest removing the per deim limitation, and instead requiring some sort of focus (ala Psionic Focus, see Expanded Psionics Handbook) to use it again. Alternatives can be as simple as requiring a minute (10 rounds) of meditation to regain the keen clarity to use the ability; requiring an action to be spent Aiming to use the Hunter's Strike (standard, move, or even full-round, depending on if you want them to be able to aim and shoot in the same round); making the character flat-footed until the beginning of his next turn due to the extreme focus it requires.
While X / day is easy to balance it tends to be unfun in play. Either the abilities are being saved for "when I really need it" or they are being used too quickly and players wish they had saved them.
Neat ability, though.

Overall, an interesting approach, adding a few new features to punch up the class a bit.


Fighter:
Much more pervasive changes. Again, you left the existing stuff alone but added new stuff.
Skill List: I really like the customization option you put here. Small but excellent. And the increased skill points allow you to actually take advantage of it.

Weapon Feats: Giving these out for free was a nice touch. It frees up a couple of feat slots while still being useful and Fighter-specific. Nice touch.

Fighting Style: Interesting stuff here. Some good ideas and some less good ideas. I do like that both styles are about equal, with maybe a slight edge to the Heavy style.
Light Style: Not bad. It builds a pretty decent light-fighter. Irresistible Strike is neat but doesn't need to be 1 / day. At level 20, your first attack generally hits 95% of the time, and most light-fighters aren't doing nearly enough damage to make the difference between two hits and three hits particularly relevant.
For both flavor and mechanical reasons I suggest figuring out how to make this essentially per encounter without actually making it per encounter (as the Hunter's Strike).
Heavy Style: Again, not bad. The AC Bonus either needs a type or needs to be explicitly un-typed, as this cuts down on confusion. Brutal Strike is mean, but not all that mean; by 20th level the d10 (or whatever) weapon is the smallest part of your damage (static damage is king), and shifting it to a non-daily balance is more fun and not unbalancing (see Hunter's Strike for some suggestions).

Ignore DR: This has a lot of style without actually changing the game much (if at all).

Perseverance: This I like, and it makes dwarf fighters that much nastier. No complaints about this one (it even comes at the right level).

Suggestions: Some sort of Slippery Mind-style ability would be good. Alternatively, something like Mettle (the Evasion of Fort / Will).

Overall, another interesting approach that does a lot for the class without either breaking it or making it unrecognizable.


Good luck.
 

Thanks. I've checked the Project Phoenix fighter and it certainly does add a further level of customization.
My intention with the changes I made to the fighter (though bland and weak ;)) was to add a kind of "template" to the base 3.5 fighter with optional abilities as generic as possible, so as to accommodate any kind of concept without stepping too much on other classes niches (such as the swashbuckler), while being complimentary to them. So a multiclass Light fighter/swashbuckler could be an interesting combination, without being redundant.
*nods* That was my intent too. My original fighter had four fighting styles, but people pointed out that it didn't fix any of the "acknowledged" problems, so I went back to the drawing board. My second version is on page 3 of the thread I mentioned earlier; I tore apart all the fighting styles, dropped about half the abilities, then made a big mix of general selectable combat abilities along with four tiers of proficiency (more to maintain balance than anything) and added in some specific class abilities to shore up its weaknesses. Overall, I like this version a lot better, and it's a good deal more powerful.

I see your point, and I admit that I basically copied the Open Game Content from the Midnight book :o. But it seem to me that changing it for a sneak attack ability would overlap with the Scout ambush ability (that's another thing - I intended to allow optional base classes to my players). Also, the way you propose the ranger to act with a sneak attack ability would benefit mostly those who focused on archery, and leave the dual-wielding rangers a bit high-and-dry, as they would have to rely on their opponents being flat-footed, or have an ally flanking them to be able to deal the extra damage.
I yoinked your Deadly Strike ability, but here's what I did with it:

"Hunter's Strike (Ex): A ranger can strike from ambush, hitting his target before it knows he's there. If the ranger is hidden, concealed, invisible, or otherwise unnoticed by his target, he can make a surprise attack. The target is considered to be flat-footed; the ranger can make a single melee or ranged attack (though he must be within 30 feet). If the attack hits, the ranger deals an extra 1d6 points of damage. If he has levels in rogue or another class that grants sneak attack, the dice of damage stack. This ability cannot be used in combat, but it can be used in conjunction with any of the Bow Mastery abilities. The bonus damage increases to +2d6 at 6th level, +3d6 at 10th, +4d6 at 14th, and +5d6 at 18th."

This a) keeps the flavor you want; b) makes it compatible with sneak attack while keeping them separate abilities; and c) makes it a lot more useful for the ranger.

Uncanny dodge and IUD: I think the fighter should have had those from the get-go. Imagine a moderately experienced fighter, or even a blademaster. He's strolling down the street, looking like he has not a care in the world, but he's actually noting the position and activity of every person in sight, whether or not they're armed (and with what), and what threat level they pose. If he's in a fight, you can bet money he knows full well where everyone around him is, even if he can't see them. That's what uncanny dodge is.

Does it step on the rogue's toes? No. A fighter's job is combat - he needs to be better at it than anyone. A rogue's job is pilfering, dealing with traps, sneaking around, and conning people. UD and IUD help him be an effective striker, but they won't help him against a fighter. Barbarian? Pfft. Personally, I don't think it should be a class, but it occupies an odd role - a cross between striker and tank. If anything, the barbarian treads on the fighter's toes, since he can do everything the fighter can and do it better. The only advantage a fighter has over the barbarian is feats, and unless you have a broad selection (which you do), that's not much of an advantage. (And you could easily make rage 1/encounter without breaking anything; it's a very simple change that makes them a lot more effective.)

The ranger: The problem with the ranger having two fighting styles is that it steps on the fighter's toes. What I did is let ranger be the masters of ranged combat - they get combat abilities every 4 levels, wherein they can choose from a list of class-specific abilities or a bonus ranged feat. If you want to play Drizzt, play a fighter or a rogue. If you want to shoot someone in the eye at half a mile, play a ranger.

Letting them have druid spells is an idea, but I'd suggest going the other way - give them more unique spells of their own. I plan to do this with the paladin, and I've got a ton of ranger-only spells (see here).

As far as animal companions are concerned, I think they need to have their role reexamined. I think ACs should serve a supplementary role at best - not a meat shield or even a combat participant in most circumstances, but a "companion" - someone who can carry messages, act as a scout, maybe cover the PC's flank in a fight, but not someone who immediately jumps into a fight except under extreme circumstances.

Balancing martial classes: If you're going to revise all the martial classes, you might as well try to make them more effective in a fight vis-a-vis casters. They'll never be on-par with a caster in terms of pure power, short of a massive revision of the spell system, but you can still boost their power while still keeping them balanced against each other. The important thing, IMO, is to define each class' role and help it to fulfil that role more effectively, while also shoring up its weak points.
 

Remove ads

Top