Sidereal Ascension methods

[paradox42]

I'm partly starting this thread to preserve ideas used in my own game in a place that's not dependent on my own hard drives/archives, but partly also because I think the people here in the forum might have good ideas to add to this list.

In core Ascension, there is no real "dividing line" between deities and Sidereals, except that you have to overcome a gang of deities who come after you to take you down before you can become a problem if you're a god who gets enough Quintessence/QP to make Sidereal. In my game, though, Sidereals are a very different class of being from deities; deities are entities "embodied" as pure energy, whereas Sidereals are entities existing essentially as coded patterns in quantum probability (which ultimately governs physical laws). This means that even if a deity acquires enough QP to cross the line to Sidereal, it's still just a deity (even if a really big one) until something special triggers the transition. The basic intent, here, was that since mortals (even those who gain a lot of quintessence) still need to undertake Ascension Quests to become gods, so too must gods undertake special quests to cross the next line and become Sidereal.

My players, being of the absurdly-high levels they are, have naturally asked about the methods one may use to gain Sidereal power, the "quests" one must undertake to prove oneself worthy enough for the cosmos to elevate one to the status of a planar soul. I gave them nine, but left the door open to other methods of gaining "practically Sidereal" power such as how Undead of powerful enough levels (like Akaliches) are effectively gods or better. I'll list the nine I gave them by the nicknames we used to refer to them, after the full list was explained; these therefore don't necessarily sound particularly Epic or Legendary or anything, but they get the point across and are useful shorthand. I'll put each method in its own post below this one, for maximum clarity (even though number 9 isn't really a "Method" as such).

Hopefully these will be useful to others, to spark story ideas if nothing else; however, as mentioned above, I wonder if anybody else has more ideas that match the difficulty and cosmic scope of these?

[paradox42]

I stole this one from BECMI D&D, admitting so to my players in game in fact. BECMI featured a class of beings known as "Old Ones" who were more powerful than Immortals and may have created the multiverse countless ages ago. There was only one method detailed in that game for crossing beyond the Immortal stage and becoming an Old One; however, the actual rules said that if a character actually did this then he "wins the game" as the Old Ones are so powerful as to be beyond game rules.

Of course, that doesn't really apply to us today!

But for BECMI, which featured 36 mortal levels and Immortal advancement up to "Hierarch 5," the Do It All Twice method means that a character must advance from a mortal all the way up to becoming a Hierarch 5, and then by way of looking for greater challenges voluntarily give up Immortality itself and reincarnate as a mortal. The character would essentially "dump" all his quintessence, in Ascension terms, and start life over again as a level 1 mortal with no special advantages. The character must then advance again all the way through the 36 mortal levels, and all the Immortal stages up to Hierarch 5, and thenagain become bored enough to give it all up to reincarnate as a mortal. The second time, though, the Old Ones come take the character away (apparently destroying him utterly using Blackballs, but really taking his soul across the Dimensional Vortex) to make him one of them.

In modern Ascension terms, the 36 levels are obviously not a hard cap, but the basic idea here is that the soul must begin as a level 1 mortal, prove worthy of godhood through adventuring and questing, advance through divine ranks to the very top (whatever that happens to be for the cosmos at hand), and then give it up by dumping quintessence voluntarily such that the god effectively vanishes and the soul reincarnates secretly as a level 1 mortal again. This second mortal must then do the same advancement again, all the way to the top, and then again go looking for something more and try to give up godhood.

The second time, the Sidereals actually convert the soul over to the new form, that which exists beyond godhood (for my own game I said this means the character's soul becomes the heart and mind behind a newly created demiplane). The god the character was appears to be dead and gone again, to other deities, but actually then exists in its new Sidereal form. In a cosmos where the Sidereals are asleep, they actually would wake up just enough to perform the conversion, which would put the character's now-demiplane soul to rest with them, and then go back to sleep.

One of my players asked (very cleverly, I thought) if the Vicissitude ability could be used to shorten the time it would take to do all this; since Vicissitude is actually supposed to be a separate consciousness that (importantly) starts out as a level 1 mortal and advances separately, I ruled that indeed it could be used that way. So in games where the Dm agrees with me, a character could achieve the "Do It All Twice" condition by having a Vicissitude advance to the ultimate pinnacle of godhood while the original character also advances to that same pinnacle- and then go looking for a way to get more.

[paradox42]

This method takes potentially much less time to accomplish than method 1, but is almost certainly far more risky an undertaking. The idea of this method is that the would-be Sidereal actually becomes the nemesis of an existing Sidereal on its own home plane, and then knocks the Sidereal off its perch at the top of that plane's pecking order.

To accomplish this, the deity must first become the only deity on an entire plane of existence (and not just a demiplane mind you, a full plane) for a period of at least a century, during which time the intrusion into that plane by any other divine being breaks the cycle and forces a restart. This condition alone is likely to prove very difficult to accomplish, since even basic servitor spirits like low-level angels and demons can constitute "deities" of a sort under Ascension rules. Individual DMs will obviously interpret this condition in individual ways- my own intent was that anything that could be classified as Hero-Deity or above would count towards breaking the cycle.

At the end of the cycle, the would-be Sidereal must then fight and defeat the plane's original Sidereal in single combat. Whether or not the Sidereal will naturally wake up after this century of monotheistic habitation of its plane is another way DMs might tweak this step of the process; obviously if the Sidereal does not naturally wake up this means that the deity in question needs to research and undertake a method of awakening the Sidereal before it can be fought. Defeating the Sidereal in single combat is, of course, the really hard part, given how many advantages the Sidereal will naturally have over even a deity at the pinnacle of Greater Godhood (or whatever is highest non-Sidereal in your game).

Presuming the deity wins, it will then replace the Sidereal upon defeating it, and the Sidereal's soul will become a deity of the former deity's old DR. They switch places, in other words. Should the former Sidereal manage to hold off divine beings the way the former deity did, for a century, the former Sidereal might then manage to Replace the Replacement and force the two souls to resume their old respective statuses. Getting Siderealhood by this method is one thing; holding it is quite another.

[Omeganian]

Overseeing a galaxy full of different species to evolve into a single advanced and peaceful society? There is a novel where galaxy sized radiation composed creatures took such duty upon themselves.

[paradox42]

This one is simple to lay out- but the devil is in the details, as it were. As the nickname implies, this method requires that the deity attempting it literally Know Everything, even if only for an instant. The idea here is that once the deity knows everything that is knowable, it knows how to "rewrite" itself as a Sidereal, and immediately does so.

But as I said, the devil is in the details. Consider what "Everything" really encompasses, even just within the game rules: the character must know all the stats of every creature that exists, and all possible outcomes of each creature using any of its abilities in any combinations (taking into account all possible die rolls involved). For example, a 1st-level Wizard who has Magic Missile can deal 2, 3, 4, or 5 points of damage with the spell, and that damage will have differing effects on different potential targets depending on variables such as immunity to Force damage (ala Force Dragons), use of a Shield spell, or many others.

And this doesn't even take into account whether you count knowledge of future events and/or possibilities as part of the "Everything" that must be learned. My own game features the concept of the "Many Worlds" interpretation of quantum theory, so in effect, all possibilities actually do exist in parallel universes. This means that the would-be Sidereal trying to get it by this method needs to know them all- all possible futures or outcomes, in all possible timelines.

Absurd? Certainly. Impossible? Depends on what the DM allows. Worthy of comparison to an entire infinite plane of existence (and more to the point, becoming the actual soul of one)? Definitely. Or so I reasoned, anyway.

[paradox42]

I based this one on the notion that the Amidah is absolutely unique, and therefore it must in some way represent a Cosmic force akin to the Sidereals themselves. This seems to be partly borne out by the facts that (A) one needs to spend two Transcendental slots to get it, if one wants to do it that way, and (B) it grants several Cosmic abilities as part of its package, like d100 hit dice and infinite Wishes (aka Alter Reality).

Method 4 for Sidereal Ascension, therefore, is to become the Amidah, the Paragon of Paragons, and stay that way for at least 1000 years. At the end of that time, the Amidah must commit suicide, and in so doing destroy the power of Amidah entirely (since it normally gets passed on to whoever defeats the previous Amidah).

This, of course, means that nobody in that cosmos can ever again become the Amidah, and therefore this method can only work once for any given cosmos.

The real key to adjudicating this method, I think, is in coming up with a suitably exotic method of suicide for the Amidah to perform, which will destroy not only the Amidah itself but also the power it had. In my game, I postulated only one such method, that being to go the wrong way through a massive portal in the Dreamheart Tempest (called the Portal of Sleep) within the Region of Dreams. The Portal of Sleep is postulated as being the entry point for all slumbering spirits of conscious beings multiverse-wide, into the Region of Dreams; when they wake up from their dreams, their spirits simply "fade out" from the Dream plane and reappear in their actual bodies. The Portal of Sleep is, therefore, supposed to be one-way; actually entering it the wrong way would literally cause the entity doing so to "dissolve" in the cosmic sense and enter the sleeping minds of every sentient in the cosmos simultaneously. I had previously stated that this would catapult the "wrong-way" entity's being into the Far Realm as a result; in the special case of the Amidah trying to become a Sidereal by this method, it means that the former Amidah thus becomes a new Far Realm layer and stays that way.

It was pointed out that in theory, this method says nothing about the Amidah being a deity, and could therefore be undertaken by a mortal if he becomes the Amidah; I actually thought that was a cool feature to keep for plot reasons and would allow it, but other DMs may feel differently.

[paradox42]

To do this, a deity must be the only deity on an entire plane, and must have a religion on that plane which claims every living sentient mortal being as a member- whether lay or clergy is irrelevant, but the mortals must all genuinely worship the deity in question and feel the being is worthy of such devotion. Also, to prevent this from being acheived rather easily with a young world, I required that no less than 1 trillion beings can be involved in this church, for it to count towards this method (though other DMs may decide to make that number less- 1 billion would be sufficient for most standard games I think).

After achieving the condition of having such a powerful monotheistic religion, and also (hopefully, with all the quintessence generated by the mortal worshippers) reaching the pinnacle of Greater Godhood (or whatever is highest non-Sidereal in your cosmos), the deity must then Send a message to all those mortals simultaneously- renouncing his or her godhood and effectively "resigning the position."

To put this in Earth context, picture a world where Christianity (for the sake of argument) has absolutely crushed all other religions out of existence, and where also there are no atheists- everybody knows God exists, and everybody worships God. Then, one day, God makes a pronouncement from on high, that everybody in the world receives unambiguously and inarguably- saying "I QUIT."

Picture what the people would then do.

The idea here is, the cognitive dissonance within the mortals, between their adoration of the deity and the deity's ultimate rejection of them, causes the god's soul to be torn from its quintessence and hurled into a nightmarish realm of quantum madness wherein it neither exists, nor does not exist. Within this realm of being-and-nonbeing, the soul undertakes a journey into and through itself, and upon reaching a complete understanding of its own mind and consciousness, it spontaneously births a new demiplane and becomes a Sidereal.

[paradox42]

The Progenitor Method requires that the deity undertaking it create a new race of beings unlike anything that has ever existed before in the cosmos, and that those beings all know and acknowledge the deity in question as their ultimate ancestor and progenitor. The beings must spread to every plane of existence (that is, at least one such being must exist on every plane simultaneously, at least long enough for the other conditions to come to pass), and they must reach a legendary status among other creatures of each of those planes.

Subraces don't count- to do this, for example, you cannot merely create a new subrace of Dragon; you must instead create "the next Dragon" in the fashion sense. The key words from the above are "unlike anything that has ever existed before." It must be well and truly, obviously a new sort of creature.

Upon getting a legendary status on every plane of existence, the combination of quintessence accorded the now-legendary creatures with those creatures' simultaneous adoration of the deity in question as their ultimate ancestor, causes that deity to transform into a truly cosmic force- the deity becomes a living law of physics and a Sidereal.

As an example, my game features a being who actually did this one- a Sidereal the PCs know by the name "Lord Io." Pretty much everybody on this forum, I think, knows who Io is- but in my cosmos, he's actually postulated as being the same being as Ao of the Forgotten Realms (among others). Some time in the absurdly distant past of the multiverse, I told my players when I revealed this method to them, Io crafted a new race of reptilian predators capable of flying and using magic in inborn, instinctive ways- which then spread to every plane and became an integral part of legends multiverse-wide. And in so doing, Io (their ultimate Progenitor) became a living law of physics- a Sidereal.

Io is specifically the law that states, "Dragons Exist And They Are Gonna Eat You," essentially.

One candidate deity for undergoing this method, if you want plots based on a deity who's trying to get it but not quite there, is Ilsensine the deity of illithids. Think of how far illithids have spread in the canon D&D multiverse, and how fearsome a reputation they have. Hells, they're actually responsible (indirectly) for the creation of two entire planar races, the Githyanki and Githzerai. So they're probably well on their way to according Ilsensine the necessary status, if the god can just get them all to acknowledge him (her? It?) as their creator and ultimate ancestor.

Note importantly that the conditions of this method do not require that the race created continue to all acknowledge the deity as the Progenitor- the elevation to Sidereal is permanent and irreversible once accomplished, so after that it doesn't matter how many of the creatures continue to worship the (former) deity. The important thing is that they all do at some point in time before the deity becomes Sidereal, and that once the other conditions are met it triggers the transformation. This explains how it is that so few Dragons in the modern era are actual Clerics of the Dragon gods, particularly of Io himself. He doesn't need them to be worshippers or Clerics of his anymore- he evolved beyond the need for such things ages ago.

[paradox42]

Like Omniscience, above, this method is easy to state but very very very very very very very difficult to actually accomplish. It requires that the deity undertaking Sidereal ascension travel to, and leave a marker containing at least 1 QP within, every single plane of existence.

Not so bad, so far? Now note that demiplanes count for this too. So do alternate Material Planes. Also, individual layers count, so this means every layer of the Abyss (which may be infinite in some games).

Also, in games where time travel is possible, the deity must also travel to (and leave markers in) every possible time.

In every possible plane.

The basic idea with this method is, by accomplishing all this travel and marking, you get the cosmos to acknowledge that your soul is something apart from all other planes of being, and you thus spontaneously become a NEW plane in your own right. Hence, a Sidereal.

My game does feature time travel, and also travel across the fifth dimension of Possibility, so nobody was particularly surprised when I told them that no known deity had ever achieved Siderealhood via this method in my cosmos.

It's probably also worth pointing out that the Travel Method is also fairly similar to the Omniscience Method in that traveling over that wide an area will naturally grant the traveller a lot of knowledge.

[paradox42]

Yes, yes- Ender's Game. I know. Get it out of your systems and read on. I suggested Ender as the nickname for this one because "Genocide" doesn't go nearly far enough to describe it. You'll see why.

Basically, it reverses the Progenitor Method- the would-be Ender Sidereal must kill every single individual member of a race created by a being that achieved Progenitor Sidereal status, finally confronting and killing the Progenitor Sidereal itself after all the creatures are dead. Do that, and the Ender becomes the Cosmic Force That Ended the (Whatever) and essentially takes the place of the Progenitor Sidereal as living underpinning of the Progenitor's old plane.

Simple to explain, but again, very very very very difficult to actually accomplish. Think for a moment about what it means, to attack and kill every Dragon in existence. All the Wyrmlings of every breed. All the Great Wyrms and Great-Great-Great Wyrms of every breed as well. Not to mention Bahamut and Tiamat, and all the other Dragon gods. And finally, after that's all done, tracking down Io and killing him too.

No mere novel, this!

[paradox42]

This is the non-method Method, and it's also by far the easiest to accomplish- if you're eligible to accomplish it at all. The only beings which can undertake it are those who are actual children of existing Sidereals. Those who have this special status can simply get to DR (whatever), and gain enough QP and HD to cross over to the next divine-tier status. For these entities, there is no divide between "deity" and "Sidereal."

Examples of such beings would be the class of creatures UK called Entities, for the purposes of the Epic Bestiary; essentially, the Cosmic-tier equivalent of Abominations. It was suggested of the book Elder Evils, that Atropus and the true form of Leviathan might constitute such Entities, as might the final integrated form of Pandorym.

But under normal circumstances, this method will be available to NPCs only; no PCs will likely be of the special "bloodline" to accomplish this.

[paradox42]

Originally Posted by Omeganian

Overseeing a galaxy full of different species to evolve into a single advanced and peaceful society? There is a novel where galaxy sized radiation composed creatures took such duty upon themselves.

Thanks for the reply! This one looks similar to Progenitor, to me, though there are differences. Perhaps it's more like a combination of Progenitor and the Worship Method. But either way, I agree that this one could work, provided the galaxy is sufficiently large enough and contains a diverse enough mix of races when you start. Something like the Dragon Empire of the Dragonstar setting would work nicely for this, I think.

[Omeganian]

The novel is called "Macroscope". By Piers Anthony.

[Upper_Krust]

Great thread paradox42!

I was of course familiar with the BECMI path to sidereality (albeit via WotI). However, I'm not sure how such an approach is within a group dynamic unless everyone undertakes it at the same time. That said, its still very interesting postulation.

Possible alternatives (off the top of my head) could be:

Existence: (Temporal based) you simply have to exist for a very long time (1 million years+). Will your mind shatter under the weight of time...?

Mergence: (Matter based) you become one with an existing sidereal, perhaps piece by piece (specifically thinking of Corum). Can you find the next piece(s) and complete the sidereal puzzle...?

Transposition: (Spirit based) you become a sidereal only to find yourself imprisoned in an alternate reality/realities, only existing in others dreams (back in your reality). Can you engineer your own freedom and will you recognise your own reality if and when you get back*...? Also what weird and wondrous sights exist in these alternate realities...will you even want to return home?

*Time could pass differently in other realities.

Exigency: (Entropy based) you become a sidereal but your power is fleeting and such temporary boosts can only be maintained by devouring [insert food type*]. Worse yet, you grow steadily weaker when you do not feed.

*Blood of Immortals, Planets, Undead, Artifacts, Time etc.

Symbiotic: (Thought based) you gain control over a sidereal rather than becoming one yourself. The more you use the sidereal, the weaker your own form becomes. The less you use the sidereal the more your control over it slips from your grasp. Do you bid farewell to your old form and embrace the new...?

No Man is an Island...but a God...: (Interdimensionally based) you become a sidereal, but realise that you only hold such power on that single plane. When you travel to other planes the power is lost. Your wounds act as Resonance wellsprings on other planes, you can influence matters on other planes through those tapping your power.

[paradox42]

Bringing it back to the ideas of the Portfolios (as Dimensions) is a good notion, certainly- particularly if your game features the possibility that other First Ones (and thus dimensions) besides the six, might come into being. Logically, any such being would need to undergo a process of creating the new dimension somehow.

I also suggested to the players a few alternate processes besides the nine "official" Methods that work for gods; as I noted in the first post, there should in theory be beings who achieve Sidereal-esque power without being "Immortals" in the manner of deities.

Undead are the obvious counterpoint: even though we don't have any Sidereal-level Undead (yet) to look at, the clear implication of the existence of the Akalich (which is effectively an Undead god) is that such beings can/must exist at least as possibilities. One player actually has an Undead PC on account of taking the appropriate Divine abilities and being a Death god; that player naturally inquired after further modes of evolution for his character. I suggested that each major Undead type would have its own means of becoming a planar "soul" (for lack of a better term to use) and thus Sidereal, but only came up with three examples myself (to be honest I was getting rather tired of thinking them up by that time).

An Akalich must be over 1 million years old, and must research a method to destroy its own Soul Gems and Phylacteries to remove its one remaining weakness (from the perspective of maintaining immortality). The being then effectively eats its own soul gems and phylacteries, in the demiplane which is to become the new seat of its consciousness, and crosses the divide to become Sidereal. I actually said that this had been done once before, in my cosmos, by a being whose name (as an Akalich) was Ghautanathoa but who now exists as a dim little demiplane called simply "the Dead Zone." I have no planar statistics or characteristics for this Dead Zone, and Ghautanathoa is a name from the Cthulhu Mythos; I just "borrowed" a couple of likely-sounding concepts/names and used them. So far the PCs haven't shown any interest in traveling there to say hi, so good.

A vampire, I suggested, must advance through the years and vampiric templates to what is known as a Methuselah or Nosferatu status (this based on the long-held notion among us fans of the IH that the Nosferatu template will be the Vampire equivalent of an Akalich); the being must then exist in that state for no less than 10,000 years. After that time, the being must successfully drain the blood from every mortal or vampiric inhabitant of its current plane, and then go into a torpid slumber for another 10,000 years. After the slumber of millennia is finished, the being awakens with a new hunger, and must again drain the blood from every living or vampiric inhabitant of the plane, and then and only then does its soul merge with the blood-dry ground and become a vampiric plane Sidereal. I said that two beings in the history of my cosmos had tried to do this, but both were killed during the 10,000-year slumber by others seeking the mantle of Nosferatu. I'll also mention that my intent here, since I borrowed the term "Methuselah" from White Wolf's Vampire: the Masquerade, was that a vampiric Sidereal would probably resemble the beings called (in that game) Antediluvians- particularly as they are portrayed in the final Gehenna book.

I suggested that a Death Knight is similar to a lich in many respects, and their method of ascending to the Sidereal is similar but involves long existence at a state called the Welkin. Since I've never actually seen a full explanation of what a Welkin is or does, I had no further details to give here, but clearly since the lich and vampire have to evolve from their god-level templates, so too must the Death Knight.

There is one final class of being, not Undead as such, that exists in my cosmos and which has a unique method of Sidereal apotheosis. Since I've stated for my cosmos that deities are entities which exist fundamentally as pure energy, and I've also equated quintessence to life-force or positive energy, it logically follows that deities are souls so charged with positive energy that they don't even need bodies to "live" and interact with Reality. Yes, even Undead deities (if they are actual deities and not just super-Undead like Akaliches) are charged with positive energy- keep in mind the "Deathless" idea from Book of Exalted Deeds and the fact that Mummies were in earlier editions supposed to be powered by positive energy rather than negative. But positive energy has its opposite number, and it is possible for souls to become so charged with negative energy that they become embodied in it. Such beings are called Antigods, and they have specific effects when they encounter and interact with regular deities. Much as antimatter is exceedingly rare in our real universe, I've postulated that Antigods are exceedingly rare in my game cosmos; however, they do exist.

Antigods have a specific method for ascension to Sidereal that isn't one of the nine- in fact it replaces the Worship Method for them. An Antigod can become Sidereal by killing itself in such a manner that it takes an entire plane along with it. The Antigod doing the Plane-Destruction thing has to be the only divine being on the plane in question when he blows it all up, otherwise it doesn't work. The detritus of the plane, as it dissolves away into nothingness, is pulled along with the Antigod's soul and essentially merges with it- arresting the slide into entropy. The Antigod then awakens anew as a Sidereal ruling a new plane.

[Upper_Krust]

Originally Posted by paradox42

A vampire, I suggested, must advance through the years and vampiric templates to what is known as a Methuselah or Nosferatu status (this based on the long-held notion among us fans of the IH that the Nosferatu template will be the Vampire equivalent of an Akalich).

Well the Nosferatu was always meant to be the Vampiric equal to the Demilich, the Welkin would have been the vampiric equivalent of the Akalich.

In 4E that has all been turned on its head, to a degree at least (there are a range of Nosferatu both above and below the power of the 4E Demilich) and I really don't think templates have the same significance in 4E.

Apologies for never getting around to the Umbrals during my 3E stint, they are very cool enemies. Hopefully I'll get to them in 4E (they are part of the plan*) and then get them converted.

*Though its a big plan.

[Khisanth the Ancient]

I would say creating a new planar layer or less important plane (Ascension says minor planes like the paraelemental planes are Elder Ones, not Old Ones) would do it. The plane would then grow with you, becoming a full blown plane at Old One and an entire dimension at First One.

In my world I'd let creating a "world" (planet or other celestial body) do it too, actually, since I have the planets and sun as Sidereals, either dormant or awake (the main world is a "dead" former First One; the sun is an awake Old One; the equivalent of Planet X/Nemesis is a dormant Old One; etc.)

[paradox42]

Originally Posted by Khisanth the Ancient

I would say creating a new planar layer or less important plane (Ascension says minor planes like the paraelemental planes are Elder Ones, not Old Ones) would do it. The plane would then grow with you, becoming a full blown plane at Old One and an entire dimension at First One.

In my world I'd let creating a "world" (planet or other celestial body) do it too, actually, since I have the planets and sun as Sidereals, either dormant or awake (the main world is a "dead" former First One; the sun is an awake Old One; the equivalent of Planet X/Nemesis is a dormant Old One; etc.)

How do you square this idea with the existence of the Genesis spell/psionic power? The 9th-level one that creates a demiplane? Is there an Epic version of it that can create a true plane, and if so, what's the DC?

I didn't feel this alone was an appropriate measure, that's why I didn't list it in the methods above.