Special Conversion Thread: Finishing off giants and their kin

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by demiurge1138

No 3.X giants have stats for their juveniles, despite this being a very common thing to do in previous edition. So that's a vote for no.

If other giants drop them, then it is best to copy that.

Originally Posted by demiurge1138

If we really want to give them an extra bonus for using clubs, we can give them Weapon Spec as a bonus feat. But I don't want to--I think this comes to difference between editions. We neither need nor should want to literally convert every mechanic on display here.

I think we need to look at the mechanics and see which are important to the creature and which are more about the edition it came from. But if people think this is something that can be cut, I'll go along with that.

It still might be nice to mention their homemade weapon construction in the blurb. It would be a good way for these creatures to rearm themselves (over time).

Originally Posted by demiurge1138

Ditto for the huge muscles and long legs--giants are already strong and are faster than people.

How about something similar, like a pass without trace or move silently bonus?

Originally Posted by demiurge1138

The swamp water spittle does seem like a ranged touch attack, and I like the idea that they need a full round to gulp up new water. We might want to increase the acid damage, due to their CR. Also, I think changing dazing to blinding (in the eyes!) or stunning (due to the force of the blow).

Blinding in the eyes works best for me.

Originally Posted by demiurge1138

A +6 natural armor bonus works, especially if we assume they're also wearing some form of armor. I like the Hide bonus.

Armor sounds nice. I think that homemade armor construction might be a useful thing to put into these guys.

Originally Posted by demiurge1138

I don't think bosk giants should have a Charisma bonus. They may be handsome, but they're also coarse, rude slavers.

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by demiurge1138

Speaking of, I agree that they should have humanoids included in their organization as slaves, but having them choose humans exclusively seems far too literalist for my taste.

I think the "human slave" thing, is probably more tied into the humans of Chislev being one of the least well prepared targets. Outside of Spelljammer, it would make sense for bosk giants to enslave whoever was easiest to catch.

[Shade]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Newsflash: ENWorld moderator finishes off trolls.

Film at eleven.

Added to Homebrews with some of the basics. I'll dig further into the discussion to fill in the blanks.

On the subject of the extra damage for the greatclubs, I get the impression that they basically are converting the weapon from just bludgeoning to bludgeoning and piercing damage, like a morningstar. The old-school method was simply to add a few extra points of damage to note such a difference.

I may have missed it, but I didn't get the impression they wore armor. +6 natural is a bit low...similarly-sized cloud giants have +12. +8 natural would preserve their converted AC of 16.

[freyar]

Hmm, it says they usually don't wear much, so I have to agree with Shade on the natural armor (though you put +6 natural in the homebrews).

Do we want to find a crude bludegeoning and piercing weapon or just stick with the greatclub?

Hide bonus in bogs, marshes, swamps, etc, +8?

[demiurge1138]

We could give them a Gargantuan morningstar, ala cloud giants.

[Big Mac]

I've copied this stuff from SJR7 as I think it might help with the conversion process:

Originally Posted by SJR7 Krynnspace - pages 45-46

The dominant species on the planet are giants. Hill giants live in the mountains south of the equator, and swamp and bosk giants live throughtout the globe. These latter two giants are detailed in the Monstrous Compendium entries at the end of the suppliment.

All giants have the rudiments of civilisation, living in crude villages with simple forms of government. The rulers of these villages are usually the strongest, with leadership frequently determined by combat. Giants disdain both the humans and demihumans on Chislev, considering them little more than animals. The swamp giants have left the humans and demi-humans alone, and have fought them only on the rare occasions when the "small ones" have ventured onto giant land. However, bosk ggiants have no qualms about attacking and capturing humans. No humans or demi-humans have been known to survive combat with these giants.

[Big Mac]

On armor:

Originally Posted by freyar

Hmm, it says they usually don't wear much, so I have to agree with Shade on the natural armor (though you put +6 natural in the homebrews).

I concur with this. They have thick skin and don't wear much.

On weapons:

Originally Posted by freyar

Do we want to find a crude bludegeoning and piercing weapon or just stick with the greatclub?

...and...

Originally Posted by demiurge1138

We could give them a Gargantuan morningstar, ala cloud giants.

Could we not do both? Most Bosk Giants could have great clubs, but the most intellegent ones could "whittle" themselves the uber-morningstar. A GM could then put down 5 Bosk Giants and give the leader a spikey club and the rest the blunt clubs.

On hide bonuses:

Originally Posted by freyar

Hide bonus in bogs, marshes, swamps, etc, +8?

You need to put jungle in the list because Chislev is a global jungle where the only variety is the type of tree in the various forests.

Page 43 of SJR7 Krynnspace says: "Chislev is a jungle. From pole to pole this world is covered with plants. Chislev has no oceans and only a few dozen lakes. Most of the water on this world is choked with vegitation".

On Bosk Giant slavery:

Here is a useful quote from page 45 of SJR7:

Originally Posted by Page 45: SJR7 Krynnspace

Humans and demi-humans are rare on Chislev, with most living on the northen and southern poles away from large perdatory animals. These bands of humans, elves, dwarves and kender are loosly-knit and disorganised. They are primative, barbaric, and move about to find food. Only a few of the bands have established communities, and these are without any form of government. The focus of these tribes' lives is to stay alive. Strength, the ability to gather food, and top hunting skills are most admired.

The humans (taken as slaves) and demi-humans mostly live at the cooler poles of Chislev. They are all uneducated barbarians, and all of the giant races think of them as little more than animals. That isn't necessarily going to apply to other gameworlds, so I think you are right to swap the races that Bosk Giants target.

I think that if a GM is going to put these creatures on another game world, they should stick them in a swamp or wet jungle and have them raid all nomadic races in the area.

On bosk giant society:

Village leaders need to be good fighters, and I'd love to see most of the leaders get the Gargantuan morningstar that demiurge brought up.

All Chislev giants look down on smaller races, but the bosk giants seem to especially think of themselves as the "master race". I think that bosk giants should use their slaves the way that a shepherd would use a dog to heard sheep or a tracker would use a dog to follow a scent trail. Mind you, I'm not entirely sure what role a slave can take in a crude village, especially one that is built in swamps. Maybe they tend to the stagnant pools of water that the bosk giants like to drink from. Slaves could dig holes that fill up with stale water.

[Shade]

So...Gargantuan greatclubs for the non-leaders, Gargantuan morningstars for the leaders (note that they do less damage with more versatile damage types)?

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Shade

So...Gargantuan greatclubs for the non-leaders, Gargantuan morningstars for the leaders (note that they do less damage with more versatile damage types)?

Less damage, huh?

Would it be dodgy to make them mastercrafted gargantuan morningstars?

[Shade]

No, but masterwork only provides a bonus to attack rolls, not damage.

If we want them to do more damage, I'd recommend making a two-handed version of the morningstar to compete with the greatclub. Probably 1d10/x2 bludgeoning and piercing damage.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Shade

No, but masterwork only provides a bonus to attack rolls, not damage.

If we want them to do more damage, I'd recommend making a two-handed version of the morningstar to compete with the greatclub. Probably 1d10/x2 bludgeoning and piercing damage.

The "whittled" version was originally supposed to be an "improvement", so I think that if the 3rd edition replacement is carved from a slightly bigger branch it would fit in with the spirit of the original weapon.

(I think this also means that community leaders should be both extra intellegent and extra strong.)

[demiurge1138]

I think we should give them Huge greatclubs or Gargantuan morningstars. I'm pretty sure that cloud giants wield their Gargantuan morningstars in two hands...

[freyar]

Originally Posted by demiurge1138

I think we should give them Huge greatclubs or Gargantuan morningstars. I'm pretty sure that cloud giants wield their Gargantuan morningstars in two hands...

That's what the SRD says.

Originally Posted by SRD

Oversized Weapon (Ex): A cloud giant wields a great, two-handed morningstar (big enough for Gargantuan creatures) without penalty.

We should just give them that and note in the flavor text that usually only leaders are intelligent enough to take advantage. That's 4d6 base damage (avg 14). A Huge greatclub would do 3d8 I think (avg 13.5). So there's a slight increase in average damage (but probably also a slightly narrower distribution) as well as the versatility of damage type.

I'm also fine with putting jungle in the conditional Hide bonus.

[Big Mac]

I can't remember if you need to cover religion (or clerics) for giants. You include it in some conversions, but not others.

I brought up Zeboim (the evil DL nature god) earlier, but I think my comments got lost in all the other activity. I can't see a god of jungles or swamps, but Zeboim is the god of evil druids, so is as close as we are going to get.

If the Bosk Giant Characters section is going to cover clerics then I think that people should be directed to page 134 of DLCS (unless you want to use the clerical spheres from Dragonlance Adventures to work out your own clerical domains).

(I've looked through Holy Orders of the Stars, but most of that focuses on Zeboim's association with the sea, so there isn't really a page there I would point people at.)

[Shade]

Updated.

Let's work on the spit water ability...

The giants have a special attack. Bosks can swallow great amounts of swamp water, which they can spit at their targets in a stream 12' long by 6" wide. The fetid water is combined with the gastric juices of the giant, causing Id8 points of damage. Further, all those struck by bosk spit must save vs. paralyzation or be dazed for 1 d6 rounds. Bosk giants who have swallowed swamp water can spit twice before needing to fill up again.

[freyar]

Ranged touch doing 1d8 acid (demiurge suggested increasing to fit CR better) and either stunning or blinding (Fort or Ref negates), we didn't seem to have a consensus. Can spit twice, but then needs a full-round action to swallow more water. Range 30-40 ft?

[Shade]

I agree with Demiurge that the damage is insignificant at their CR. Maybe 3d8?

I could see stunning, but nauseated actually strikes me as the most appropriate. Imagine the stench of swamp water mixed with stomach juices!

[demiurge1138]

I like nauseated.

[Shade]

Does this look OK?

Swamp Spit (Ex): Bosk giants can spit swamp water combined with their gastric juices at enemies. This is a ranged touch attack with a range of 30 feet that deals 3d8 points of acid damage. Additionally, a struck victim must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or becmoe nauseated for 1d6 rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based.

A bosk giant can store enough swamp water to spit twice. After that, it may spend a full-round action to swallow enough swamp water to spit again. A swamp giant may refill its stomach after only a single use, but may never store more than two uses worth of swamp water.

[demiurge1138]

Considering that the original text has the spit in a line 12 by 6, why don't we make it a breath weapon instead? A line, I would imagine.

[Shade]

So 10-foot line with a Reflex save rather than ranged touch?