Converting prehistoric creatures

[InsanePsychoRabbit]

According to Wikipedia, Placerias may have lived like a hippopotamus. This time the theory has scientific backing, because Placerias are usually found in mudstone. It should probably have some sort of Swim bonus, if not an actual swim speed.

For feats I suggest Alertness, Endurance, Improved Bull Rush, and Power Attack

Here's the flavor text I've come up with:

Displaying both reptilian and mammalian traits, this ox-sized beast is built like a barrel. Its stout limbs stick out from its body at a slight angle. It has a large, sloping head with a turtle-like beak. Two large, forward-curving tusks sprout from behind its beak.

Placerias is a dicynodont, an herbivorous therapsid (“mammal-like reptile”). Dicynodonts are characterized by their parrot-like beaks, two tusks in the upper jaw, and barrel-shaped bodies with splayed legs. Placerias is one of the largest dicynodonts, comparable in size to a cow.

Placerias is similar to a hippopotamus in its habits. During the wet season, groups of placerias spend most of their time wallowing in water, protecting themselves both from the sun and from large land predators like the postosuchus. During the dry season, placerias use their tusks to dig up roots for sustenance. Placerias also use these forward-curving tusks for defense and display.

An adult placerias is about 11 feet long and weighs anywhere from one to two tons.

Combat
Perhaps due to their size, placerias are particularly ornery for dicynodonts. They charge at any perceived threat, using their tusks to gore opponents.

[RavinRay]

To support what IPR mentioned, a fossil find of a Placerias predator showed that its bones had been crushed, meaning that acting as a herd, they are able to kill single predators with their tusks. It's in my Dinosaurs: A Global View book.

[InsanePsychoRabbit]

Here's the preliminary stat block I've come up with:

Dicynodont, Placerias
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 9d8+45 (85 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), swim 15? ft.
Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +6 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+17
Attack: Gore +12 melee (1d8+10)
Full Attack: Gore +12 melee (1d8+10)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Deadly charge, trample 2d6+10
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +6, Will +4
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: 12 points
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack
Environment: Warm plains (rivers)
Organization: Solitary, pair, or herd (5-20)
Challenge Rating: 4?
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 10-14 HD (Large); 15-18 HD (Huge)

Combat

Deadly Charge (Ex): When a placerias charges, its gore attack does 2d8+14 points of damage.

Trample (Ex): Reflex half DC 21. The save DC is Strength-based.

Skills: A placerias has a +8 racial bonus on Swim checks made to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. A placerias can always take 10 on Swim checks, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided that it moves in a straight line.


I'm interested in splitting skill points evenly between Listen, Spot, and Survival; it shouldn't need to put ranks in Swim because its Strength score is quite high.

[Shade]

I ported this over to Homebrews.

I'd agree with the suggested skill rank split, and agree that Str and swim speed bonus should suffice for Swim modifier.

[demiurge1138]

I'd say CR 5. It's slightly better than a rhino in terms of hit points, and has trample to its advantage.

[InsanePsychoRabbit]

Ok. demiurge, do you agree with the assignment of skill points?

If we're entirely done with the therapsids now, what's next?

[demiurge1138]

The skills look good to me.

[Shade]

Updated.

As for what to do next, I don't believe we've done either of these yet:

Rhynchosaur [Dragon #112]
Therapsid, Estemmenosuchus [Dragon #176]

RHYNCHOSAUR
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 1-20
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 9”
HIT DICE: 1 hp to 2 HD
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 (bite)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Nil to 1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
SIZE: S to M (up to 3’ long)

Rhynchosaurs are lizardlike reptiles from the Triassic, where they may be extremely abundant in places. They are herbivores, some up to the size of a pig. With its large body, sprawling legs, and beaked head, a rhynchosaur may be envisioned as a large, barrel-shaped iguana with a parrotlike beak. Rhynchosaurs eat seeds and fruits, but they bite if molested. They vary with size as follows:

HIT DICE: to ¼ ½ 1 2
DAMAGE: Nil 1 1-2 1-4
SIZE: S(2-3) M(4) M(5) M(6)

Estemennosuchus
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Forests
FREQUENCY: Common
DIET: Herbivore
ORGANIZATION: Herd
NO. APPEARING: 5d10
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 6
HIT DICE: 4
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d6 (head butt) or 2d4
(bite)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: None
SPECIAL DEFENSES: None
SIZE: L (10’ long, weighs 1 ton)
MORALE: Average (10)
XP VALUE: 175

Estemennosuchus is one of the Dinocephalia, or "horrible-headed" mammal-like reptiles. These creatures of the Permian period are herbivorous, but sport large fangs and a prominent bony boss or outgrowth on their heads (hence the name) for protection. They travel in sizable herds and may cooperate in the common defense in case of attack. The males will range themselves around the rest of the herd; as they each weigh a ton, it will be hard for any ground creature to get past them. They fight either with head butts or their great fangs.

[Echohawk]

Originally Posted by InsanePsychoRabbit

If we're entirely done with the therapsids now, what's next?

Estemmenosuchus?

Edit: Shade beat me to it

[InsanePsychoRabbit]

Let's start with Estemmenosuchus, then.

Let's see...it has 4 Hit Dice, and according to the conversion booklet, it has an Armor Class of 16 and a land speed of 20 (?) feet. The base damage should stay the same.
Now as for its ability scores, here's some Large animals to compare it to:
Bison: Str 22, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 4
Rhinoceros: Str 26, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 2
Dire Boar: Str 27, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 8
Hippopotamus: Str 24, Dex 9, Con 20, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 3

[demiurge1138]

I'm in favor of using the hippo's ability scores. They look pretty ungainly to me.

[InsanePsychoRabbit]

I agree - with its size and splayed legs, I don't think its Dex should be any higher than 8 or 9.

Edit: Here's a preliminary stat-block I've come up with:
Edit 2: Oops, missed Shade's post, I'll just leave the flavor text.

This bull-sized creature is built like a barrel. Its thick body is supported by stout, splayed legs, and a short tail lashes behind it. Its most distinctive feature, however, is its head: one the sides of the face and above the eyes, it has horn-like projections, causing it to resemble a reptilian moose.

Estemmenosuchus is a dinocephalian, a type of primitive therapsid (“mammal-like reptile”). Like some other dinocephalians, it has bony ornamentation of the head, leading adventurers to refer to it as the “crowned crocodile.” The estemmenosuchus' ornamentation resembles the antlers of a large deer. Estemmenosuchuses use these antler-like projections to compete by head-butting and pushing.

An estemmenosuchus is 10 feet long and weighs one ton.

Combat
Estemmenosuchuses, especially males, are aggressive animals and will charge with head lowered into anything they deem to be a potential threat (basically any Medium or larger creature). In addition to their headgear, they have large canine teeth, making bites from estemmenosuchuses potentially deadly.


Do we want to give it any special attacks, like deadly charge? How about ferocity?

Dangit, my USB thumb drive just stopped working AGAIN, so I lost all my work on my dinosaur book project since I backed it up on December 21st >_< I hope that either it'll start working again miraculously or my dad can somehow recover it....even if neither of those happen, most of the stuff I lost was converted creatures from this thread, so it shouldn't be too hard to start over...

[Shade]

Added to Homebrews.

Give it a swim speed? One of the images on Wikipedia shows it swimming, but I can find no other evidence to support this.

[InsanePsychoRabbit]

This site says that "the remains of Estemmenosuchus have been found in a channel flood deposit, indicating that they probably frequented lowland and marshy areas." They might have taken the occasional dip...maybe they're like hippopotamuses? Big, ungainly, aggressive creatures with big teeth, living near water, primarily herbivorous but won't turn up their nose at carrion.

[demiurge1138]

Let's give it deadly charge with its butt attack, but I'm not a big fan of giving it a Swim speed. I do like the idea that they eat occasional carrion.

[InsanePsychoRabbit]

If we don't give it a Swim speed, I think it deserves a racial Swim bonus of +4 or so. Let's add marshes to the environment.
As for deadly charge, how much damage should that do? Double?

How about its feats? I'd suggest Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush.

[demiurge1138]

+4 Swim bonus and marshes sound good to me. Double damage on deadly charge is standard.

I'd prefer Endurance and Great Fortitude for the feats, but like Imp. Bull's Rush as a bonus feat.

[freyar]

Endurance, Great Fort, and Imp Bull Rush[b] sound great. Skills, since we already have a Swim bonus, should probably Spot and/or Listen.

[Shade]

Updated.

Listen 4, Spot 3?

Advancement?

CR?

[demiurge1138]

Spot 4, Listen 3. 5-10 HD (Large), 11-12 HD (Huge) because, why not?

Deadly charge is usually double base damage plus 1.5 times Str, so 2d6+10.

CR 3? It's better than a bison, but worse than a dire boar.