Treasure and leveling comparisons: AD&D1, B/ED&D, and D&D3 - updated 11-17-08 (Q1)

[Quasqueton]

It started with a curious notion, and it built up from going through one adventure module noting certain things mentally. Then it became actually taking notes on a piece of paper, and comparing between them.

Following this opening post, will be lists of the treasure (gp value, xp value, and magic items) in the iconic adventure series of AD&D1, B/ED&D, and D&D3.

NOTE: This thread will contain spoilers for:
AD&D1's Temple of Elemental Evil, Against the Giants, Descent to the Depths of the Earth, Vault of the Drow, and Queen of the Demonweb Pit.
D&D3's Sunless Citadel, Forge of Fury, Speaker In Dreams, Standing Stones, Heart of Nightfang Spire, Lord of the Iron Fortress, and Bastion of Broken Souls.
B/ED&D's The Keep on the Borderlands, The Isle of Dread, and others.

I will probably be adding data from other classic adventures as well.

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The layout of the data:

Party begins at: This is the level (and xp) that the party of adventurers begin the adventure module. For the "adventure path" modules, the levels (and xp) will carry over from one adventure in the series to the next.

Total gp value: This is the total value of items that had a value listed for them in the adventure module (usually coins*, gems, and jewelry). It does not include the value of mundane armor, weapons, and equipment taken from fallen foes.

Total xp value: This is the total value of enemies and/or challenges that had a xp value or CR. For AD&D1 and B/ED&D, it includes the standard 1gp = 1xp. But this will not include xp for using or selling the magic items (an AD&D1 rule only). It also does not include the 5-10% bonus xp for having a prime requisite ability score above 12-15. Although this means the AD&D1 and B/ED&D xp values will not be as high as they could be in actual play, these extra xp are too variable to include in this data list.

Total magic treasure: This includes magic items listed as treasure in the module. It does not include non-treasure magic items, like what the captain of the guard in the town might have, or things that might have a magical effect but what can't be taken by the PCs.

Party finishes at: This is the level (and xp) that the partyof adventurers come out of the adventure module.

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AD&D1 and B/ED&D rules and adventures expected a larger party of adventurers than D&D3 assumes. (Some AD&D1 and B/ED&D adventures expected/suggested as many as 10 PCs.) For these adventures I'm using 6 PCs in my calculations because:
1- In my experience, with several groups through the years, I've never seen more than 6 PCs regularly in a game
2- WotC did research in the late 90s to find out what the normal average was for most game groups, and their data showed 4 PCs were the average (3-5).**

For AD&D1 parties***: a fighter, paladin, cleric, magic-user, illusionist, and thief.
For B/ED&D parties***: a fighter, cleric, magic-user, thief, elf, and dwarf.****

To compare the leveling rates between the older editions and the current edition, I'll use these D&D3 PCs:
D&D3 to AD&D1 comparison party: a fighter, paladin, cleric, wizard, illusionist, and rogue.
D&D3 to B/ED&D comparison party: a fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue, fighter/wizard, and fighter

D&D3 rules and adventures expect only 4 PCs. So for D&D3 adventure modules, I'll use: a fighter, cleric, wizard, and rogue.



* AD&D1 coinage was 1 gp = 20 sp = 200 cp = 1/5 pp.
B/ED&D coinage was 1 gp = 10 sp = 100 cp = 1/5 pp.
D&D3 coinage is 1 gp = 10 sp = 100 cp = 1/10 pp.

**It seems that Gygax and TSR based their "large party" assumption on their personal experiences (like EGG sometimes having upwards of 20 Players at his table at one time) and tournament gatherings (having 6-9 Players in a game) rather than on market sample information of actual home games (which reports say they had none).

*** The various classes in AD&D1 and B/ED&D used different xp charts, so I chose 6 different classes to show how they level up at the different rates.

**** In B/ED&D, the elf, dwarf, and halfling were classes as well as races. Elves were essentially fighter/magic-users; dwarves and halflings were essentially just fighters. Since halflings had a level cap at 8th, I chose to drop them from the list of characters here. (Elves capped at 10th, and dwarves capped at 12th.)

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I hope you find this data as interesting as I have found it. I'll start with the beginning adventures of the respective iconic "adventure path" series.

Quasqueton

[Quasqueton]

The iconic first adventure for AD&D1.

The Village of Hommlet - The Moathouse by E. Gary Gygax

AD&D1 party begins at: (0 xp each)
Fighter 1
Paladin 1
Cleric 1
Magic-User 1
Illusionist 1
Thief 1

D&D3 party begins at: (0 xp each)
Fighter 1
Paladin 1
Cleric 1
Wizard 1
Illusionist 1
Rogue 1


Total gp value: 30,938 gp

Total xp value:
AD&D1: 38,148 xp (not including the xp value of using or selling magic items, nor the 10% bonus for ability scores over 15)
D&D3: 25,548 xp

Total magic treasure:
+1 plate mail armor
+1 arrows (x4)
staff of striking
phylactery of action
potion of undead control
scroll of protection from undead
magic-user scroll spells: push, stinking cloud, fly


AD&D1 party finishes at: (6,358 xp each)
Fighter 3
Paladin 3
Cleric 4
Magic-User 3
Illusionist 3
Thief 4

D&D3 party finishes at: (4,258 xp each)
Fighter 3
Paladin 3
Cleric 3
Wizard 3
Illusionist 3
Rogue 3

So the AD&D1 party averages level 3.33, and the D&D3 party averages level 3.

Quasqueton

[Quasqueton]

Now the iconic first adventure for BD&D.

The Keep on the Borderlands – Caves of Chaos by E. Gary Gygax

BD&D party begins at: (0 xp)
Fighter 1
Cleric 1
Magic-User 1
Thief 1
Elf 1
Dwarf 1

D&D3 party begins at: (0 xp)
Fighter 1
Cleric 1
Wizard 1
Rogue 1
Fighter/Wizard 0/1 or 1/0
Fighter 1

Total gp value: 29,852 gp

Total xp value:
BD&D: 36,057 xp
D&D3: 72,975 xp

Total magic items:
shield +1 (x3)
potion of healing (x4)
scroll of fireball
hand axe +1 (x2)
rope of climbing
arrow +1 (x6)
potion of invisibility
scroll of cure light wounds, hold person
potion of poison
wand of paralyzation (7 charges)
scroll of protection from undead (x2)
spear +1
staff of healing
plate mail +1 (x2)
potion of gaseous form (x2)
potion of growth
sword -1 cursed
elven boots
snake staff
scroll of detect magic, hold person, silence 15' radius
sword +2
helm of alignment change
wand of enemy detection (9 charges)
potion of stone to flesh (x6)
amulet of protection from turning (x28)
amulet of protection from good (x6)

BD&D party finishes at: (6,010 xp each)
Fighter 3
Cleric 4
Magic-User 3
Thief 4
Elf 2
Dwarf 3

D&D3 party finishes at: (12,162 xp each)
Fighter 5
Cleric 5
Wizard 5
Rogue 5
Fighter/Wizard 2/3 or 3/2
Fighter 5

So the BD&D party averages level 3.2, and the D&D3 party averages level 5.

Quasqueton

[Quasqueton]

And the iconic first adventure for D&D3.

The Sunless Citadel by Bruce R. Cordell

Party begins at: (0 xp each)
Fighter 1
Cleric 1
Wizard 1
Rogue 1


Total gp value: 2,336 gp

Total xp value: 19,700 xp

Total magic treasure:
+1 morning star
wand of entangle (13 charges)
+1 shatterspike longsword
+1 crossbow bolt (x2)
Night Caller whistle (special)
Quaal's feather token (tree)
everburning torch
everburning candle
divine scroll spells: command, cure light wounds, inflict light wounds, magic stone, faerie fire, entangle, slow poison
arcane scroll spells: mage armor, spider climb, knock, pyrotechnics
potions: fire breath, endure elements (fire), cure light wounds (x4), cat's grace, protection from elements


Party finishes at: (4,925 xp each)
Fighter 3
Cleric 3
Wizard 3
Rogue 3

Ends exactly where it says it will.

Quasqueton

[Quasqueton]

I'll be adding more over the next days and weeks. I'm having to recompile my notes since the Great ENWorld Forums Crash of '06. I was really hoping the tech-admins would get the lost data recollected so I wouldn't have to go through all this again. But, oh well. I have the data still, but I must reformat it for posting in an intelligible form :-)

Quasqueton

[Quasqueton]

Continuing the AD&D1 adventure path.

The Temple of Elemental Evil - The Last Tower and Upper Rubble by E. Gary Gygax

AD&D1 party begins at: (6,358 xp each)
Fighter 3
Paladin 3
Cleric 4
Magic-User 3
Illusionist 3
Thief 4

D&D3 party begins at: (4,258 xp each)
Fighter 3
Paladin 3
Cleric 3
Wizard 3
Illusionist 3
Rogue 3


Total gp value: 7,079 gp

Total xp value:
AD&D1: 10,329 xp (not not including the xp value of using or selling magic items, nor the 10% bonus for ability scores over 15)
D&D3: 9,450 xp

Total magic treasure:
+1 longsword
+2 shield
+1 arrows (x9)
cloak of elvenkind
potions: healing, speed, extra healing, water breathing


AD&D1 party continues at: (8,079 xp each)
Fighter 4
Paladin 3
Cleric 4
Magic-User 3
Illusionist 3
Thief 4

D&D3 party continues at: (5,833 xp each)
Fighter 3
Paladin 3
Cleric 3
Wizard 3
Illusionist 3
Rogue 3

The AD&D1 party averages level 3.5, and the D&D3 party averages level 3.

Quasqueton

[Quasqueton]

Continuing the AD&D1 adventure path.

The Temple of Elemental Evil - Dungeon Levels 1 and 2 by E. Gary Gygax

Dungeon Level 1

Total gp value: 29,686 gp

Total xp value:
AD&D1: 42,855 xp (not not including the xp value of using or selling magic items, nor the 10% bonus for ability scores over 15)
D&D3: 53,550 xp

Total magic treasure:
+3 crossbow bolt (x1)
+2 chainmail armor
+2 dagger
+1 shield
+1 morning star
+1 ring mail armor
+1 battle axe
+1 mace
+1 cloak of protection
+1 ring of protection
ring of shooting stars
rope of climbing
stone of weight (cursed item)
elfin chainmail (technically, not magic)
wand of paralyzation (38 charges)
scroll of protection from undead
jars of Keoghtam's ointment (x3)
javelin of lightning (probably used by enemy)
potions: healing (x3), speed, dimunition
scroll of protection from earth elementals
cleric scroll spells: animate dead, prayer


AD&D1 party continues at: (15,221 xp each)
Fighter 4
Paladin 4
Cleric 5
Magic-User 4
Illusionist 4
Thief 5

D&D3 party continues at: (14,758 xp each)
Fighter 5
Paladin 5
Cleric 5
Wizard 5
Illusionist 5
Rogue 5


Dungeon Level 2

Total gp value: 105,084 gp

Total xp value:
AD&D1: 145,902 xp (not including the xp value of using or selling magic items, nor the 10% bonus for ability scores over 15)
D&D3: 69,684 xp (does not include xp for 1 drelb, and 1 sumonster -- I do not have CRs for these creatures)

Total magic treasure:
+3 longsword frostbrand, (intelligent, Lawful Good, detect evil, detect magic, detect shifting walls and rooms, levitation)
+2 warhammer
+2 chainmail
+2 ring of protection
+2 broadsword
+2 shield
+2 cloak of protection
+1 longsword flametongue
+1 shortsword, +3 vs. lycanthropes and shapechangers
+1 plate mail armor
+1 banded mail armor
+1 shield
+1 dagger (x2)
+1 chainmail armor
+1 cloak of protection
+1 mace
+1 ring of protection
+1 short sword
+1 leather armor
rod of smiting
dagger of venom
bag of holding (100# version)
ring of free action
ring of fire resistance (x3)
necklace of adaptation
rope of entanglement
cloak of the manta ray
gargoyle cloak (x4)
trident of yearning
potions: invisibility, healing, extra healing, poison, water breathing, fire resistance (x2)
scroll of protection from devils
scroll of protection from elements
scroll of protection from lycanthropes
continual light gems (several)
cleric scroll spells: dispel magic, flame strike, tongues, resist fire, neutralize poison, true seeing, purify food and drink, flame strike, part water, control weather
magic-user scroll spells: friends, magic missile, knock, mirror image, web, slow, rary's mnemonic enhancer
illusionist scroll spell: misdirection


AD&D1 party finishes at: (39,538 xp each)
Fighter 6
Paladin 5
Cleric 6
Magic-User 5 (99% of 6)
Illusionist 6
Thief 6

D&D3 party finishes at: (26,372 xp each)
Fighter 7
Paladin 7
Cleric 7
Wizard 7
Illusionist 7
Rogue 7

The AD&D1 party averages level 5.7, and the D&D party averages level 7.

Can someone tell me the CR for a drelb and a sumonster? I don't know what book(s) they may be in.

Note: If we assume that each of the AD&D1 characters had a 16 in their prime requisite ability score (Strength for fighters, Intelligence for magic-users, etc.), the AD&D1 party would be:

AD&D1 party finishes at: (43,492 xp each)
Fighter 6
Paladin 5
Cleric 6
Magic-User 6
Illusionist 6 (illusionists cannot get a bonus for high ability scores)
Thief 7

Averaging level 6 (the magic-user and thief gained a level).

If I were to add in the xp for the magic items, the level would go even higher.

Quasqueton

[Hussar]

Well, this should bring things out of the woodwork again.

I would just like to say thanks to Quasqueton for this. While this may not be definitive, it's at least a fair bit better than saying, "Well in my game..."

[Quasqueton]

Continuing the AD&D1 adventure path.

The Temple of Elemental Evil - Dungeon Levels 3 and 4 by E. Gary Gygax

Dungeon Level 3

AD&D1 party begins at: (39,538 xp each)
Fighter 6
Paladin 5
Cleric 6
Magic-User 5 (99% of 6)
Illusionist 6
Thief 6

D&D3 party begins at: (26,372 xp each)
Fighter 7
Paladin 7
Cleric 7
Wizard 7
Illusionist 7
Rogue 7


Total gp value: 183,279 gp (plus 9 random gems and 2 random jewelry)

Total xp value:
AD&D1: 229,744 xp (not including the xp value of using or selling magic items, nor the 10% bonus for ability scores over 15)
D&D3: 47,203 xp (does not include xp for 2 leucrotta -- I do not have a CR for these creatures)

Total magic treasure:
+3 periapt of proof against poison
+3 crossbow bolts (x5)
+2 javelin
+2 shield
+2 spear, backbiter
+1 chainmail
+1 shield
+1 battle axe
+1 short sword (x2)
+1 longbow
+1 leather armor
elfin chainmail (technically, not magical)
crossbow of speed (missing string)
bracers of defense AC 6 [+4 AC] (x2)
belt of holding (special)
boots of elvenkind (small)
cloak of elvenkind
expanding/shrinking storage box (special)
rod of protection against turning and control (special)
cloak of poisonousness
necklace with one pebble evoking an Otiluke's freezing sphere (special)
ring of delusion (seems like x-ray vision)
tome of leadership and influence
vacuous grimoire
ebony fly
crystal hypnosis ball
ring of invisibility
mirror of mental prowess
wand of lightning (5-50 charges)
wand of wonder (50 charges)
potions: plant control, red dragon control, hill giant strength, dimunition, healing, delusion (seems like treasure finding), speed, ESP, flying, sweetwater, polymorphing
scroll of protection from undead
scroll of protection from magic
magic-user scroll spells: spider-climb, levitate, infravision, extension I, gust of wind, tongues, polymorph self, remove curse, airy water, limited wish, magic mouth, fly, charm person, polymorph other, (7 random spells)
magic-user's spell book with 97 spell levels (up to 5th)
cleric scroll spells: animate dead, raise dead, restoration
incense of meditation (x6)


AD&D1 party continues at: (77,829 xp each)
Fighter 7
Paladin 6
Cleric 7
Magic-User 7
Illusionist 7
Thief 8

D&D3 party continues at: (34,239 xp each)
Fighter 8
Paladin 8
Cleric 8
Wizard 8
Illusionist 8
Rogue 8


Dungeon Level 4

Total gp value: 450,751 gp

Total xp value:
AD&D1: 504,835 xp (not including the xp value of using or selling magic items, nor the 10% bonus for ability scores over 15)
D&D3: 42,066 xp

Total magic treasure:
+3 plate mail
+3 shield
+3 sling stone (permanent)
+2 hammer
+2 shield
+2 ring of protection
+1 plate mail
bracers of defense AC 3 [+7 AC]
bracers of defense AC 4 [+6 AC]
staff of striking
ebony fly (cursed after 7 uses)
stone of controlling earth elementals
potions: extra healing (x2), speed (x2), healing, growth, (29 random), flying, polymorphing, climbing, invisibility
boots of levitation
ring of fire resistance
rope of entanglement
portable hole
cloak of poisonousness
mirror of lifetrapping (1 compartment)
ring of featherfall
book of vile darkness
ring of free action
rod of smiting
Daern's instant fortress
wand of fear (unknown charges)
wand of ice storms (42 charges)
wand of fire (unknown charges)
wand of metal command (21 charges)
half a candle of invocation
candle of invocation (chaotic evil)
Magic-user spellbook with 20 spell levels (up to 2nd)
Magic-user spellbook with 69 spell levels (up to 5th)
cleric scroll spells: silence 15' radius (x2), dispel magic (x2), cure critical wounds (x2), flamestrike (x2), slay living (x2)


AD&D1 party finishes at: (161,968 xp each)
Fighter 8
Paladin 7
Cleric 8
Magic-User 9
Illusionist 9
Thief 10

D&D3 party finishes at: (41,250 xp eachl)
Fighter 9
Paladin 9
Cleric 9
Wizard 9
Illusionist 9
Rogue 9

The AD&D1 party averages level 8.5, and the D&D3 party averages level 9. .5 level difference. The AD&D1 thief has reached "name level".

Can someone tell me the CR of a leucrotta?

If we add in the 10% bonus for prime requisite ability score(s) above 15, only the paladin would gain a level.

Quasqueton

[Quasqueton]

The above finishes the main objective of the Temple of Elemental Evil adventure. There is more to the adventure: explore the elemental nodes, then destroy the Golden Orb of Death, and/or kill the demoness Zuggtmoy. As the text of the adventure states:

The fourth level of the dungeon is the true climax of the whole campaign. . . .
The anticlimax comes when the party finally reaches the portion of the third level wherein Zuggtmoy is bound.

The above data does not include the seperated "prison" section of the dungeons. The ways of getting to that area are very limited, and the party could wipe out the entire temple forces and never know it is there -- the high priests don't even know Zuggtmoy is there.

The elemental nodes are huge, and encounters are strictly on a random wandering monster basis. The text even states that exploring the nodes can be a full campaign in itself.

The party could consider the sacking of the 4th level of the dungeon the end of the adventure, and they would not be wrong. Exploring the nodes, assembling the Golden Orb of Death, destroying the orb, and killing the demoness are superfluous at this point.

So, for this data, I am calling the ToEE complete. Next, the AD&D1 and D&D3 parties will be moving on the Giants series.

Quasqueton

[Quasqueton]

Observations I've made based on the data:

Magic items were not rarer in AD&D1 than they are in D&D3. In fact, by the same levels, a party will probably have quite a bit more magic in AD&D1 than in D&D3. But D&D3 allows the PCs to tailor and customize their magic items to better suit their needs. An AD&D1 fighter may have a +1 broadsword, a +1 spear, a +1 handaxe, and a +2 dagger at 5th level, but the D&D3 fighter might have his preferred +2 greatsword at 5th level. (A quantity vs. quality issue?)

And especially things like potions and scrolls. Note how the poor AD&D1 illusionist in this data doesn't find a scroll until about 6th level, and it has only one spell. A D&D3 spellcaster can have a handful of chosen spell scrolls by 3rd level, either by purchasing them or scribing them personally. But AD&D1 spellcasters just got what they found.

The D&D3 characters are not leveling up appreciably faster than the AD&D1 characters. I suspect that what many people remember as very slow leveling in AD&D1 is a result of DMs not including as much treasure in their campaigns as the official adventures (and the rules as written) include (and assume). For instance, an official adventure might have 1,000xp worth of monsters and then 9,000gp as treasure (for a total 10,000xp). But an individual DM's adventure may have 1,000xp worth of monsters and only 2,000gp as treasure (for a total 3,000xp). Thus leveling was slowed greatly. But this is an effect of the DM, not the rules.

I remember doing this when I ran an AD&D1 game. It was not my intention to slow advancement, but thinking back on it now, that was a byproduct of my style.

Anyone else's experience support this?

Quasqueton

[Eric Anondson]

Originally Posted by Quasqueton

Anyone else's experience support this?

My own DMing practice was to dish out 10% of the treasure value as XP, rather than a 1-to-1 equivalent. I may have dished out treasure less than 3e standard practice, but I don't think it was noticibly lower...

Very interesting experiment, I'm interested in seeing more results of the D&D3 vs. B/ED&D comparisons.

[Gentlegamer]

Originally Posted by Quasqueton

**It seems that Gygax and TSR based their "large party" assumption on their personal experiences (like EGG sometimes having upwards of 20 Players at his table at one time) and tournament gatherings (having 6-9 Players in a game) rather than on market sample information of actual home games (which reports say they had none).

You mean on actual first hand playtest experience. Gygax also had many sessions where only one high level character participated, but such a character was seldom alone. Henchmen, hirelings, and followers fill out the rest of the party number even if fewer players are there.

[T. Foster]

No henchmen in the 1E party soaking up XP and excess magic items? No characters having to eat excess XP because they stop gaining XP once they have enough to go up a level (this makes a big difference in the moathouse, where almost all of the characters will have to eat a huge chunk of XP after defeating Lareth and gaining his treasure)? No characters dying and having to restart at level 1? Are you decreasing the XP awards for overmatched encounters as instructed in the DMG? I've run T1-4 through from beginning to the end (or, rather, to the same place you did -- not including the Nodes or the sub-level) twice (and T1 alone several more times) and neither time were the characters anywhere near the levels you have shown at the end; they averaged about level 6 with only the thieves at level 7. Of course they didn't kill every single monster or recover every single piece of treasure, either...

[Odhanan]

Thanks Quasqueton. That's all very interesting data to look at.