Casters, are the fort saves on most monsters too high?

[frankthedm]

Does it seem all those nasty fort save spells go to waste? Does it seem rogues and arcane casters the only worthwhile targets of these spells? Do good Con, lots of hit die and a good fort save show up too damn often on the D&D monster palette once save or die effects become available to PC casters?

Inspired by the "Dragon's saving throws too high?" and "Medium saving throws" threads.

 

[Fishbone]

I'd say that with so many foes like giants, monstrous humanoids, full BAB classes, magical beasts, dragons, and abberations having so many HD, a good Fortitude save(by virture of dice of class) and creatures like undead and golems being immune that the Fort spells are usually the most niche/least used.
Targetting the Fort. save is many times a fool's errand.

 

[Mouseferatu]

This brings up a design element that I hope to see changed in 4E (may it be a long time in coming ).

I'd like to see "save negates" stripped from the game entirely. Every spell should have some effect on a failed save, even if it's far less impressive than the spell would otherwise be. That way, there's no sense in having totally wasted a spell (or a round).

Now, to make up for that, some of the higher-end spells would have to be powered down a bit from where they currently are, to keep the casters balanced. But that's a tradeoff I'd be willing to make.

 

[frankthedm]

I'd almost say a negative level or 2 points con damage would be fair.

 

[blargney the second]

I don't like save-or-die effects, so it doesn't really bother me. I'd also love to see "save negates" disappear from the game at some point!

 

[Gold Roger]

I'm not a fan of total save or die. But there enough other fortitude spells so this is still worth a look (desintegrate and sound lance are my favorites). Fort save effects are a bit niche, but there's still enough opponents that are vulnerable to them. Those are many caster classes, many aberrations (just look at a mind flayers fort save, ouch) and there's enough object hitting fort spells that undead are worth of note as well.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

This brings up a design element that I hope to see changed in 4E (may it be a long time in coming ).

I'd like to see "save negates" stripped from the game entirely. Every spell should have some effect on a failed save, even if it's far less impressive than the spell would otherwise be. That way, there's no sense in having totally wasted a spell (or a round).

Now, to make up for that, some of the higher-end spells would have to be powered down a bit from where they currently are, to keep the casters balanced. But that's a tradeoff I'd be willing to make.

Most save or die spells already do damage even if you pass your fort save.

Destruction does 10d6
Phantasmal Killer does 3d6
Some of the other ones do 3d6+1/caster level.
Its not much but it helps.

Of the monsters not immune to death effects monstrous humanoids, elementals of the air/fire types, fey, oozes and some humanoids don't have good fortitude saves.

We'll say humanoids and air/fire elements count for only 'half a type' and just say 4 of the 15 types don't have good fort saves or immunity to most fort spells.
Creatures of these types aren't the most common types of monsters either but I think it's still manageble.
Even if only 1/5 opponenets you fight is likely to fail a save or die spell its still worth it to prepare one because you can blow that encounter away (assuming you recognize your opponents weak saves, which is a key skill as a caster).

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

I'd rather see something that allowed the caster to increase the DC at the expense of something else fairly precious (actions, say, or higher level spell slots). Something to make it less of a rock/paper/scissors situation, where the mage just always targets the weak save.

 

[mmu1]

The situation with Fort saves is somewhat ridiculous - in a campaign we'd wrapped up recently (at level 14), we had a rogue with Staggering Strike, which meant things he sneak attacked often had to make DC 25-35 saves - far in excess of most spell DCs - and there's one fight I actually remember it working well in.

And it's not just Fort saves, either - there are CR 12 monsters (Astral Stalker, I'm looking at you) out there with all saves at or around +20.

 

[Ashrum the Black]

But, is this a problem with the spells design, or is this an issue with the monsters themselves?

I personally think the spells themselves are fine, but that the monsters need to have their saves reblanaced. Especially the larger CR critters.

-Ashrum