Ravenloft: Fun? Scary? Questions for my game.

[Terwox]

Hey, with all the fuss about Ravenloft going on, I've got some of my old vigor for horror-fantasy awakened by nostalgia from playing the game Quest for Glory 4, and, well, having the town named Barovia just gives me ideas.

Now, I've played and ran Call of Cthulhu, which I'd say as a game can really be pretty scary, or at least quite eerie. For those of you that have played both Ravenloft and CoC, can you get the same feeling out of both? It seems like playing a game where fights are expected to be won through force many times (D&D) would vary greatly from a game where fights are best avoided (CoC.) Am I incorrect in your experience?

Also... simply, is Ravenloft fun to DM? It certainly seems that way, and I've enjoyed running Cthulhu, Vampire, and D&D. Anything I should look out for?

For context, I'm thinking about dropping Barovia and Castle Ravenloft into my homebrew, which in brief is a game where the party (a human fallen paladin trying to redeem himself, a hobbit berserker bent on revenge against the orcs, and some friends who play less often) are some of the last few remaining humans and hobbits in the world, as a war between orcs controlled by infernal powers (yes, yes, I like Warcraft) and the undead (who are slain by sunlight and operate through Giants during the day) spilled onto what was a peaceful world. Barovia's people would be protected from this by the mists (and, well, something to keep the undead out...) My game is currently True20, which I think I can hack by converting things.

The party is currently out in search of an old rumor of fiercely intelligent wolves, in hopes of taming one. (Which, come to think of it, the hobbit could use as a mount.) Barovia seems as good a place as any to find a magically intelligent wolf!

 

[ruleslawyer]

Well, a magically intelligent wolf that's interested in doing the bidding of the Darklord and either eating your PCs or conning them into serving his ends, yes...

I've never found Ravenloft to be my cup of tea for anything other than low-level games, largely because it tries to shoehorn heroic PCs into the role of horror victims. There are excellent horror games out there; CoC d20 is an example of a D&D-like game that has appropriately-scaled PCs, as even a 20th-level CoC PC, while extraordinarily skilled and reasonably durable against cultists, is no match for an actual CoC monster of any potency. But I have a hard time with Ravenloft's dogged insistence on stacking the deck higher and higher to try to make 10th+-level D&D characters fit a role for which they are fundamentally unsuited. IMHO, Ravenloft works best when run in a tongue-in-cheek mode (grafting the conceits of gothic horror onto D&D in a sort of cowboys-meet-dinosaurs fusion vein) or when you just run it straight-up in a The Mummy or Conan fashion where the monsters and mood are dark and terrible, but the heroes can kick their butts anyway.

 

[Rhun]

Also... simply, is Ravenloft fun to DM? It certainly seems that way, and I've enjoyed running Cthulhu, Vampire, and D&D. Anything I should look out for?

I found it is fun to DM if your players know ahead of time you are going "no holds barred" on them, and they are mature enough to handle that.

If the foes are played like the intelligent undead beings that they are, you can easily decimate a group of PCs, and strike horror within their ranks. Ah...good memories.



Also, when I speak of Ravenloft I am talking about I6 Ravenloft and I10 The House on Gryphon Hill. I never got into the whole Demiplane of Ravenloft thing...

 

[Terwox]

or when you just run it straight-up in a The Mummy or Conan fashion where the monsters and mood are dark and terrible, but the heroes can kick their butts anyway.

Yes, I think I will end up taking this route. I'm not looking to run this game as tongue-in-cheek... not that I don't love doing so, just not for this game.

Hrm, raising the wolf as inherently evil but as a dread companion (fiercely loyal to the players) could be pretty fun! Don't think I want to have the wolf directly betray the party, only indirectly by helping them through evil means -- hardly something a fallen paladin and a berserker on his way to falling to corruption need!

 

[Terwox]

I found it is fun to DM if your players know ahead of time you are going "no holds barred" on them, and they are mature enough to handle that.

Well, it's the players' first game (they're my younger cousins, both are ~15) and so far they've been a little headstrong about charging into combat (which I encourage, honestly) although they're willing to run if they need to. I'm not sure I'll be running very intelligent evil undead quite as effectively as I should be, but I'm way more concerned about making the game fun.

I've yet to receive the adventure, but I expect I'll chuck it plus a few extra encounters (with the wolves and others) with whatever neat Ravenloft ghastlies I can find in there too. The monster that feeds on dreams sounded very neat.

 

[Endur]

Ravenloft works best with a Cthulu flavor.

Some of my players had their PCs jump out of Castle Ravenloft (with the 1000 foot drop from the castle) rather than risk facing Strahd in combat. Although in their defense, they defeated him in the first combat in his study, and they were low on resources and outnumbered when they fled from him later in the catacombs.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I know this will not be believed, but our DM demanded we bring only characters we had earned - that is, 1st level starting characters - into I6, Ravenloft. I happened to have a 10th level druidess, Cyndelle, who was able to go along (old-timers will remember that druids were useless back then against the undead, and underground in general.)
The TPK that occurred was inevitable. The FUBAR that led up to it, however, was genuinely hilarious.

For example, Ravenloft is a complicated place to map. We came back to a room we had already been in, when our map said we should be halfway across the dungeon.
The DM asked to see our map.
After seeing our map, the DM gently advised we simply throw the map away.

We DID get to fight Count Von Strahd. After it was clear we were goners, we challenged him. And heh, Cyndelle died a natural death (fell to -10 before she could be drained or the like.) She was the only character in the group who died so easily.

-

I wouldn't call Ravenloft fun to DM, and I've DMed it. The reason is that this is not a module for DMs like me (DMs who prefer to see the whole party survive the module.)
Ravenloft is a case of: You put your head in the chopping block, so you had better find that Stoneskin to stop the axe from working on it. No Stoneskin, no head! And you have only yourself to blame. (In this respect, it is much like S1, The Tomb of Horrors.)

With Ravenloft, you can't turn back once you have entered the Domain (or, in I6 apparently, simply the region.) No power can get you out but the death of Count Von Strahd himself.
Of course, your characters don't know this, but even the best player might be tempted to metagame when another player whispers: you go in, you can't get out, even with a Wish!

Ravenloft is a blast to play in, especially if it's your favorite character you are playing. The thrill of terror resounds through every moment of the campaign.
Remember, that back in 1E and 2E, there was *no* saving throw against level draining, and vampires drained 2 levels per hit. And there are vampires in Ravenloft (watch out for the maid ...) along with other nasties also best avoided (but you came here to Ravenloft, right: you can't avoid them!)
So one hit from a vampire, and you go from 10th level to 8th. Another hit, and you're down to 6th. And vampires can and will attack twice in one round, using both hands (back in the older editions, it was easier to do that), at least in my campaign and in the one I was in as a player.

You can always run. Being a coward and a cravenly swine is good for you, in Ravenloft. Learning how to hide is also good for you ... but you had better hide yourself truly well, as vampires are *real* good at finding living beings attempting to evade them. (You will find that Rope Trick is worth it's weight in gold.)
Party cooperation is ESSENTIAL in Ravenloft. You have enough troubles without party in-fighting!!! Besides, party infighting makes lots of noise ... and in Castle Ravenloft and around Castle Ravenloft, there are plenty of things with supernatural hearing who just love the sound of beating hearts and the emanations of the warmth of living beings ... they have this way of showing up real quickly, even going right through solid walls to reach the party (read: surprise attack.)

Ravenloft is a great place for cleverness, boldness, and audaciousness. In the face of Count Von Strahd and his cronies, what else can you do? I mean, you weren't squeamish or cautious or even reasonable, or you wouldn't be here in the first place! So rock on, and use every dirty trick in the book, and twist every spell to your advantage (like that old Frisky Chest spell), and play to win.
If you do, you just might win the hoard of treasure in the place. You might kill the beasties.
And if you do, you might kill Count Von Strahd. IF you can do that, your name as a heroic adventurer is sealed for all eternity. You've just done something to put the likes of Mordenkainen, Elminster, and Raistlin to shame. THEY never dared Ravenloft.

In Call of Cthulu, there are no winners, only survivors, as it says. But in Ravenloft, you can come out in triumph ... if you can beat Strahd. This is no mere treasure hunt (no foray into Ravenloft is EVER a mere treasure hunt) This is guts and glory.
Unless, of course, you ended there unintentionally (the Mists took you, or an enemy teleported you there, etc.) in which case you must decide whether to kill yourself now, or wait until the vampires do. Either way, you lose.

Your world has seen the extinction of humans and demihumans? Orcs and undead (through giants) fight it out?
Perhaps your party could bring a horde of the orcs into Barovia by accident, through a Gate or Wish or something of that sort? (It is easy to get *into* Ravenloft.)
While an infuriated Strahd is dealing with a hundred thousand rampaging orcs, the party could be plundering his castle. Perhaps the party is allied with the orcs? They play wolf tactics on Strahd (one attacks him while the other rests?) They drive him batty until he makes that mistake that allows the party to kill him?
Strahd is an egotistical type. He will not be happy to see lowly orcs tearing up his land.

(muses)

If the party can outpolitick Strahd, more power to them. Strahd fancies himself the cleverest and most knowledgable of people. He thinks he is better than you or me. Bringing him down is such a sweet delight, and doing it with lowly orcs just makes it sweeter.

I do hope your party can figure out the means to beat Strahd and his slaves. More power to their efforts. Tell them I told them so.

Oh, and tell the fallen paladin not to get back up while in Ravenloft. Paladins in Ravenloft tend to ... uh ... walk around with neon lights of holiness and goodness all over them.

Yours Sincerely
Edena_of_Neith

 

[MerricB]

Remember, that back in 1E and 2E, there was *no* saving throw against level draining, and vampires drained 2 levels per hit. And there are vampires in Ravenloft (watch out for the maid ...) along with other nasties also best avoided (but you came here to Ravenloft, right: you can't avoid them!)

So one hit from a vampire, and you go from 10th level to 8th. Another hit, and you're down to 6th. And vampires can and will attack twice in one round, using both hands (back in the older editions, it was easier to do that), at least in my campaign and in the one I was in as a player.

Heh. Vampires still energy drain in 3e, and you still don't get a save against it. (The energy drain may be temporary, however - 24 hours later you get your save). They can only use it 1/round, but four hits on an 8th level character will kill him.

Cheers!

 

[DeadlyUematsu]

Ravenloft is fun but compromising the D&D end of things is not the answer at all. Remember that and you should be fine.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Remember that Haste allowed double attacks in 1E and 2E, under many DMs.
Strahd, like all vampires of 1E and 2E, was a wizard.

Now, Strahd could already strike twice (with the -2 / -4 penalties to hit, unless you upped his dexterity which most DMs would do.)
Add in Haste, and this meant Strahd would get FOUR attacks per round, with a pretty good chance of all of these attacks hitting. And he'd get these 4 attacks each and every round, for more than 7 rounds.

Thus, your 9th level character last round is now 1st level this round. And that is truly an OUCH moment, if ever there was one. (they always did underestimate the value of clerics, back in those days, until they ran into this kind of thing ... )

And, of course, Strahd brings his maid to the battle, Hastes her as well, and brings those dragons into it if possible, and the gargoyles, and ...