4e / GSL Sandboxing in the Nentir Vale (was: Emergent Features in KotS)

[LostSoul]

We had our second session last night, and it was good fun. There were a few things that I thought were neat in last night's game, and I'll mention them here.

We started off right after the last session, where the PCs defeated the first encounter. The Wizard tried to use Nature to determine if the kobolds had some kind of organization, but failed. He figured they were just a band of wandering monsters, and there would not be any more around.

I kept this in mind for later, because I don't want rolls that don't matter.

In the second encounter (the kobold ambush) I decided that DC 25 Perception checks were too high - 10 + Stealth was what I went with. Now, because of the Wizard's earlier failed roll, I gave him a -2 on his Perception - he wasn't expecting any more kobolds and wasn't looking out for them the way he normally would have been. Most of the kobolds got surprise anyways. Since the Wyrmpriest was too far away from the PCs to spit acid at them (his energy orb power), I had him "stunt":

"I will finish what my fallen brothers started! Irontooth will kill you all - starting with you!" He rolled Intimidate vs. Will + 5 against the Warlock (who went down a couple of times last game), hoping to deal some psychic damage. He missed - the Warlock got over his near-death experience from the last game.

Although at first the fight was going against the PCs, the turning point was when the elf shifted into difficult terrain. I allowed the Rogue to use Acrobatics instead of Athletics to climb one of the boulders - described as a Jackie Chan-move, springing off the kobolds flanking him.

The PCs then captured one of the dragonshields and Intimidated him for information on his lair (and they took his left toe for a 2gp reward from Padraig, something I added). Then, when he was released, the Warlock blasted him. Sweet revenge.

They went to fight the gnome, and the Cleric used Diplomacy on one of the rabble to try to convince him to flee. He failed. The minion would have taken some damage if he succeeded, and that would have "killed him" - or made him run, in this case.

The PCs dominated nicely, and I felt sorry for the poor guard drakes, playing up their relation to each other, having them cry out when the other was hurt.

Douven Staul told them about the death cult (no need to hide the adventure from the PCs), then ran off to Fallcrest to warn the guys there about Orcus.

The PCs took an interest in the glyphs on the map and the treasure they found, so they started making rolls to determine what was up with that. I decided to roll with it. I said it was a warding seal, designed to trap something in - and the dragon had been sacrificed to power it. The mirror they found was an ancient relic of Nerath, and the Wizard had heard legends that such mirrors were used to trap demonic creatures. It was empty now, and drained of magic, but I told them it could be powered again somehow. (I have no idea how at the moment. We'll see if the players use it in a neat way later on.)

They rested up in Winterhaven before going to fight Irontooth. In Winterhaven the Wizard had some words with Padraig when the Lord scoffed at the idea of death cultists. He took a Quest - something like, "Replace Padraig with a competent Lord." Very cool.

The fight at the waterfall with the guard minions went well for the PCs, but Irontooth was warned and he came out of the waterfall to issue a challenge to the PCs. That's where we ended for the night.

Good fun. It looks like 4e is good for resolving player actions that aren't spelled out, allowing for player creativity to influence the game in unexpected ways. I'm interested in seeing what kind of stuff they are going to pull against Irontooth next time.

[rkwoodard]

thank you,
I am running 4e using KOTS tomorrow for the first time.

RK

[SweeneyTodd]

Looking good! Remember the table on pg. 42 of the DMG, it gives some nice guidelines for improvisational moves if you're ever looking for "default" values for making this stuff up. (Since that page is literally The Answer to Everything, I think they put it on that page # on purpose.)

[LostSoul]

Heh, 42, didn't think about that!

That table sure does come in handy. Having it there means that there's a lot of neat stuff you can do. That's why I wanted to open the first combat with an action the rules don't cover - just to show the players that I'm cool with it.

[LostSoul]

We played again tonight, but not many interesting rules things came up.

The battle with Irontooth was crazy as the entire 2nd encounter jumped them before they had a short rest. But Irontooth missed, missed, and missed again and was killed. They eventually won without any casualties!

They found the note about the spy in Winterhaven and went to confront Padraig. Now previously one of the PCs got in Padraig's face over his reluctance to do anything about the cult ("Cultists? Preposterous!").

I decided that he was "in on it" - he wasn't the spy, but he had been contacted by Kalarel and told to stay out of Lord Orcus' business or else. And he was paid off, which he used to buy some grain for his poor farmers (who had been plagued by Kalarel's kobolds).

So that's the backstory. When they confronted Padraig with the note, he burned it and told them to get lost. The Warlock started a fight, which they won in short order.

I had Rond Telfem show up with his men, freaked out. But he was willing to listen. The PCs tried to convince him to listen to them, and we started rolling some dice. About two rolls into the scene, I thought: This is a skill challenge. So without saying anything, I rolled with it. The goal: stay on the good side of the law.

The PCs won (I was ad-libbing DCs). The PCs calmed Rond down at first, getting him to listen; they Healed Padraig - keeping him alive but unconcious so he couldn't speak against them; they used the Make Whole ritual to reproduce the note and showed it to Rond; and then they searched the manor for evidence.

At this point, Padraig woke, and confronted with the evidence, he spilled his guts.

Now the players wanted to buy some magic items. There aren't any for sale in the town. I told the players to pick some items from the PHB, and not worry about the fact there wasn't a store in town. I had a plan.

The fighter chose a battleaxe, the warlock a rod, and the rogue a dagger.

It says in the module that, when the PCs leave Winterhaven to go to the Keep, the town sees them off. At this point, I had the NPCs show up and give them gifts. Padraig gave them his family battleaxe, which his father used to pacify the area, making Winterhaven safe. Valthrun gave them a black rod from fallen Nerath which held untold powers. And Rond slapped a dagger into the palm of the rogue: "It saved my life, maybe it'll do the same for you."

[Mathew_Freeman]

Originally Posted by LostSoul

We played again tonight, but not many interesting rules things came up...

[cut for length]]

It says in the module that, when the PCs leave Winterhaven to go to the Keep, the town sees them off. At this point, I had the NPCs show up and give them gifts. Padraig gave them his family battleaxe, which his father used to pacify the area, making Winterhaven safe. Valthrun gave them a black rod from fallen Nerath which held untold powers. And Rond slapped a dagger into the palm of the rogue: "It saved my life, maybe it'll do the same for you."

That is a fantastic sounding session, kudos to you. I might try and steal a few bits of that - see how my players take it.

[wedgeski]

A veritable lesson in "Yes" DM'ing. I salute you sir!

[hong]

Originally Posted by LostSoul

They found the note about the spy in Winterhaven and went to confront Padraig. Now previously one of the PCs got in Padraig's face over his reluctance to do anything about the cult ("Cultists? Preposterous!").

See, I would have said "Cultists? Inconceivable!" This is why LostSoul is a better DM than me.

[LostSoul]

We played again tonight, and I am finding that I really need to improve my tactics. My bad guys are getting creamed by the PCs. More practice is what I need, I guess, because I don't want to take the time to think out a great strategy if it slows the game down.

So, time for interesting features:

After slamming the door shut on the hobgoblin torturer - the door of the IRON MAIDEN - the PCs took over the room and decided to use its features to extract some information from one of the surviving goblins. (They just didn't trust Splug. I wonder why?)

He pointed out that Balgron the Fat, the goblin subchief, had his lair just through the door down the other way. The door that he was trying so hard to get to, but couldn't because he was being roasted from behind by flames from hell.

The PCs snuck up on the lair - stealth had worked well in the first encounter, why not the second? - and with help from a ghost sound (+2) and some sound effects I liked (another +2), the Rogue slipped past the guards. He heard the heavy snoring from Balgron the Fat and decided to kill him.

He didn't expect to see a goblin guard watching over Balgron while the subchief slept. The Rogue had a surprise round - he wanted to kill the guard before he could make a sound.

After some table talk - basically working out the parameters of what he could do - we decided on this: with some nice RP - the Rogue moving up to the goblin, sweeping his legs and then putting his knee on the goblin's throat - he could knock the goblin prone and silence him until the end of the Rogue's next turn.

A successful Dex vs. Reflex - it had worked!

Good thing, too. The goblin won init.

He tried to break the Rogue's hold on him, which he did (if he had failed, the silenced condition would have "sustain minor"), and he tried to shout out a warning. Nothing came out but a squeak. Remember - "end of the Rogue's next turn."

Stupid goblin.

The Rogue then slipped behind the curtain and performed his Daily power on the helpless subchief - Final Strike, I think - and the Coup de Grace damage was greater than the bloodied damage.

The rest of the battle was a mop-up.

After that, they killed the rest of the goblins on the level, capturing a few. Have to remember - the goblins will be willing to work for the PCs and will try to make some kind of deal for their lives.

edit: I should also note that I gave the Rogue an individual Quest on the spot: if he kills Balgron, he gets the XP. I wanted to tempt him to be daring!

[LostSoul]

Played again tonight. Not much interesting stuff to report on - it turns out, when you're stuck in a corridor fighting hobgoblins, your at-wills are your best bet!

Play started with the PCs holeing up in the torture chamber with their captive goblins. The goblins beg for mercy and plead for their lives, offering their service. Hey, they're goblins; they fight for the strongest. It's what they do.

While they were extended resting, I used the hobgoblin slavers - the Bloodreavers - from the web enhancement as an encounter. The hobgoblins had come down to sell some slaves for the ritual. The PCs heard them mucking about.

I had Splug show them a secret door I added connecting the torture chamber to the middle of rooms 12, 13, and 14. They chose not to take it. Instead, they decided to bluff their way through things, claiming they were the ones in control, the ones who were going to buy the slaves. The check was successful.

I had the hobgoblins come in, mess around, and a few other checks were made. I didn't do a skill challenge - I was pretty content with the first check, and figured that the PCs could get rid of the hobgobs if they wanted to, or get the jump on them if they wanted to fight.

They wanted to fight. The hobgobs were mashed.

So the Rogue decides to check out the secret door. He does some scouting. He finds a single guard in the barracks. He decides to try to assassinate him.

He failed.

This drew all sorts of action. The PCs got the goblins to fight for them, guiding them as minions using minor actions (think bag of tricks!). It was crazy as two encounters fell on them at once.

They were pulling it off - a close thing, but they were doing it!

Then the Fighter was pushed out of place. The hobgoblins slipped past him. They triggered the silent alarm. The warchief was alerted.

Another encounter fell on them.

At this point, all they were doing was trying to escape. They almost pulled that off, but the Fighter drew an OA while picking up the body of the Warlock - an OA which hit his AC by 1, and dropped him to 0 hp.

Now the Fighter and the Warlock are going to live out the rest of their short lives being tortured and prepared for sacrifice to Orcus, Demon Prince of Undead.

Or will they? We'll find out next session.

[pukunui]

Awesome stuff! I wish I was this good at improvising! Actually, I wish that my players were this creative! None of them really think outside the box. I wish they'd try things like what your rogue did to Balgron's guard. The whole knocking him down and silencing him thing was great!

Mind if I plunder some of your ideas? I think I might just have to give my players some concrete examples of things they can do in order to get the idea in their heads that they can try zany things. I gave them a little talk about trying stuff out last session and the best they came up with was to scale the cliff and try to attack the kobolds outside the lair from the top of the waterfall (which backfired badly). Since we're all still learning, I'm going to tell them about the various things they can do that are written into the encounters in H1 (like knocking over tables, pulling down curtains, and the like). I'm hoping by the time we finish and start H2, they won't need any more prompting.

[Imp]

This sounds like a lot of fun!

[Mathew_Freeman]

Mental note - look at pg 42, mention it to the players, offer them a hidden +1 if they attempt anything from it in the next session.

[Heselbine]

Originally Posted by Tallarn

Mental note - look at pg 42, mention it to the players, offer them a hidden +1 if they attempt anything from it in the next session.

Do bear in mind that the p42 table has been errata'd and is now completely different!!!

[pukunui]

Originally Posted by Heselbine

Do bear in mind that the p42 table has been errata'd and is now completely different!!!

I wouldn't say it's completely different. Only the DCs-by-level bit has changed. The damage-by-level is the same. And errata isn't mandatory. You can ignore it if you want to ...

[LostSoul]

Originally Posted by pukunui

Awesome stuff! I wish I was this good at improvising! Actually, I wish that my players were this creative! None of them really think outside the box. I wish they'd try things like what your rogue did to Balgron's guard. The whole knocking him down and silencing him thing was great!

One thing I did, when the players were discussing the Rogue's assassination attempt, was to give him a minor Quest on the spot. Then, when he went in to take care of business, I asked him "What do you want to do? Forget the rules for a second - what would you like to have happen?"

[pukunui]

Originally Posted by LostSoul

One thing I did, when the players were discussing the Rogue's assassination attempt, was to give him a minor Quest on the spot. Then, when he went in to take care of business, I asked him "What do you want to do? Forget the rules for a second - what would you like to have happen?"

That's a good way to do it. I like that. Thanks, LostSoul.

[LostSoul]

Played tonight.

Not too much to report except the cool skill challenge we had.

Situation: Half the PCs were headed back to Winterhaven. Half the PCs were in the Keep, at the mercy of Kalarel.

Winterhaven:
In peril! The dead are rising from the graveyard!

The Keep:
Kalarel: Submit to the will of Orcus, or die!

I ran The Dead Walk encounter for three PCs. (Two players only; the Cleric's player left because he got a job that was on at nights.) So it was the Rogue, the Cleric, and the Wizard against Ninaren and the rest of them.

They had a single NPC minion - 1st level human - on their side, that they controlled using Minor Actions. Yeah, he went down right away.

The PCs were not doing much better. They knew they had to shut down that magic circle, but they had to stay alive long enough to do it. And I was rolling hot.

Meanwhile, we were cutting to the other PCs in the Keep and their skill challenge - once per round, giving each player a chance to do something. Kalarel was trying to break them, to curse them to do the will of Orcus. I started off by using torture, but the PCs were resisting. The Warlock feigned an interest in Orcus to keep the hot pokers away from his flesh, so Kalarel dragged them all to the upper temple. (Room 18)

On the way there, the Fighter broke his bonds.

Cut back to the fight.

Things going bad. PCs dropping. The Cleric turns undead, the Rogue is able to shut down 1/3 of the Magic Circle thanks to the guidance of the Wizard. ("Your lifeblood will cancel out the magic!" the Wizard's player said. The Rogue just barely made his roll.) But the Wizard went down, and so did the Rogue. Not good. They had taken out maybe 2 skeletons and one zombie dog at this point.

Cut to the Keep.

We're in the blood-soaked altar room. Time for a sacrifice! I started dragging the PCs onto the altar to see what would happen - what they would do to get out of that situation.

The Warlord, a new PC - replacing the Cleric - said that he had created a small sympathetic doll that would take the curse instead of him. Arcana roll (Hard) = success! He undergoes a ritual - soaked in the blood of a sacrificed pig - but suffers no ill effect.

The Warlock is next. He says he already believes in the power of Orcus, and he didn't need the blood ritual. "Good, then," Kalarel responds, "you can have the fire!" Bones burning with a sickly green flame scorched his flesh.

Yes, this was a failure.

Then we turn to the Fighter. Who, remember, had broken his bonds. He's thrown on the altar. "You are the most stubborn," Kalarel says. "You will taste the knife of Orcus!" He draws a knife, preparing to plunge it into the Fighter's chest.

The Warlord responds with a Scorching Burst right on the altar. "The holy flames of Orcus!" he says. "He is already blessed!"

Yeah. Kalarel is not buying it either. "Betrayal!" he shouts. The Warlord runs.

Now the Fighter makes his move. He flips out and goes all bad ass. He crushes the throat of the vampire spawn next to him. He punches the underpriest in the face and breaks his nose. He kicks Kalarel in the gut and winds him.

We're at 7 successes and 2 failures. What's the Warlock going to do?

Let's cut to the graveyard.

Things aren't looking good. The Wizard is back up and wipes out a bunch of skeletons thanks to a Colour Spray, but even using his Action Point he can't make it to the Magic Circle in time to attempt to break its power. And with ~10 hp left, that's not good.

Ninaren goes and fires at the Cleric. Twang! A 3 comes up on the die. Yeah, I'd use my Elven Accuracy too. Swhiff! Another 3. Crap. I probably would have nailed him if I hit with that sweet, sweet 1d10+5 damage.

The Cleric survives. Survives long enough to make it to the Magic Circle and make a check to dispel it. But one check isn't going to do it. Thank the Raven Queen he's got an Action Point. He makes the roll, and all the undead drop dead.

Back to the Keep.

It's down to the Warlock's roll; success or failure, it's going to be resolved here. Will they be swarmed by the Kalarel and his bitches, or will they break out?

The Warlock makes his move. He calls a flaming claw from Hell to grab the underpriest and throw him down the well. The underpriest tries to dodge, then to wiggle his way free, but he's stuck. He gets tossed down the well. All they can hear is a loud splash.

The PCs decide to beat feet and get out of there before Kalarel can rally his troops.

Back to Ninaren vs. the PCs.

It's one non-elite NPC vs. 3 PCs, but they are badly hurt. Almost all healing's gone, this is the 3rd encounter of the day and the last one was a bitch - no dailies remain. But the men in Winterhaven can see what's going on, and when the PCs call for support - and make the Diplomacy checks to get it - the odds shift in their favour.

Ninaren is surrounded, attacked from range, flanked, blasted from afar, and he can't roll above a 3. The Rogue puts him away for good, and Ninaren collapses into an open grave.


Okay, that was longer than I thought it would be.

After that, the PCs in the Keep pushed their way through to daylight; the PCs in town recruited a few allies (i.e. 16 year-old minions); and eventually they met up again. (The Wizard had an awesome idea, to send the PCs in the Keep the secret passcode found on Ninaren; too bad it didn't matter, since the guards were dead, and hey, it's a fake passcode anyways.)

"So what do you want to do now?"
"How about we go back down into the Keep?"

They pushed forward, destroyed the clay scout who was lurking in the first room before it could alert Kalarel, and made it to the gauntlet/skeleton generator room. They wiped out the room and destroyed the sarcophagi.

I had the whole room dedicated to Orcus and the scribblings to Bahamut were there because Keegan was trying to banish these things. But he was cursed; he couldn't speak the words. So the PCs had to do it.

Anyways. The skeletons gone, they smashed the altars, weakening Kalarel's bond with Orcus. (i.e. They get the benefit of the dragon statues.) They looked at the door, glowing with warding symbols of Orcus, wondering what it meant:

"If good wards are meant to keep evil things away..."
"...then evil wards are meant to keep good things away!"

That's where we left off.


Some things I suspected, but I think I learned: When running a skill challenge, as a DM you really have to push the PCs. Don't just leave them in a place where they can do nothing. "Okay, you make it to an empty room. You're okay. What do you do?" NO! "Okay, you make it to an empty room. But you hear the sound of stone rumbling... EARTHQUAKE! What do you do?"

You don't get a roll as DM. You have to pack your punch without the roll. Push them to a situation where they have to make a roll - and make sure they deal with the consequences of that roll, of the change in the situation -whether they succeed or fail.

edit: The Skill Challenge was Level 4: DCs 7/12/17; most checks were DC 12, a few DC 17. We used some Powers/Attack Rolls as Skill Checks. Still used the same DCs, though Kalarel would have been Hard, while the Underpriest was Moderate and a Minion would have been Easy.

[Nebulous]

Originally Posted by LostSoul

Played tonight.

Not too much to report except the cool skill challenge we had.

Great summary LostSoul, i really really like how that played out. I have some problems with Skill Challenges myself, i think i'm doing them wrong. i.e., there's not enough inherent tension packed in. But the above examples worked beautifully.

[Korvax]

That is a bag of awesome! I love this thread, if only for the great inspiration it gives me as a DM. Thanks for sharing LostSoul!