Racially diverse artwork in D&D...does it influence you?

[Imaro]

First let me state upfront, this isn't a rant or anything like that.

Over on rpg.net there is a discussion going on about the lack of a half-orc and, as threads often do, it went onto a tangential. That tangential lead to some links that I will post below by Todd Lockwood, who did alot of the conceptual art for D&D 3e. After reading some of his comments it got me to thinking...is too much racially diversity artwork in D&D really that much of a factor that it would affect whether you bought the game or not?

As an african-american, it's lack of has never been an issue that would make or break me buying the game, however after reading some of Todd's comments about the marketing department over at WotC I'm starting to wonder if I should be more discerning of it as a conscious choice on R&D's part. I mean if they are purposefully fighting against diversity in artwork am I only reinforcing what I consider pretty close-minded thinking by purchasing their products? Do my actions in fact support what they believe would or wouldn't sell? Thoughts or opinions on this matter would be appreciated.

Here are the links & quotes...

Originally Posted by Todd Lockwood

THIS SKETCH WAS ANOTHER EFFORT ON MY PART TO INTRODUCE RACIAL VARIETY INTO THE GAME. IT WAS AN IDEAL WHICH WAS ROUNDLY ENDORSED IN CONCEPT, BUT FOR WHICH WE HAD TO FIGHT IN APPLICATION. FANTASY WORLDS TEND TO BE FILLED WITH WHITE PEOPLE.

http://www.toddlockwood.com/gallerie...d_female.shtml

Originally Posted by Todd Lockwood

EVEN THOUGH THE R&D BOYS WERE CONVINCED THAT THE ICONIC FIGHTER FOR MARKETING WOULD BE A DWARF, I KNEW THAT A HUMAN FIGHTER WOULD BE ADOPTED FIRST. FOR THAT REASON, I INTENDED HIM TO BE AS RACIALLY AMBIGUOUS AS POSSIBLE–HE SHOULD LOOK LIKE HE COULD BELONG TO ANY RACE, OR NONE AT ALL. TORDEK THE DWARF GRACED THE COVERS OF ALL THE EARLY PRODUCT, BUT REGDAR THE HUMAN FIGHTER MADE THE FIRST APPEARANCE ON STANDEES AND POSTERS. THE DETAIL ON THE RIGHT IS REGDAR AT 5TH LEVEL, IN THE ARMOR THAT DEFINES HIM BEST.

http://www.toddlockwood.com/gallerie...1/regdar.shtml

I noticed this morphing of Regdar's appearance throughout 3e, but chalked it up to different artists interpretations...now I wonder if there was some sort of marketing imperative for it. It's funny that when I look at Regdar in 4e this ambiguity is all but gone.

These are just two I think would have gone a long way towards diversity in the PHB... The first is clearly african-american and the second, at least IMHO, looks native american.

[Snoweel]

I feel you dawg.

I'm still pissed my Drow ranger couldn't be white.

[Rechan]

This doesn't contribute a lot, but I thought the first link was more asian. In fact, I always thought it was. I mean, the top knot alone is a very asian hairstyle, isn't it?

Now that you say Native American, I can kinda see where you're getting it, but not completely.

[Rechan]

Originally Posted by Snoweel

I feel you dawg.

I'm still pissed my Drow ranger couldn't be white.

Shadar-kai.

Seriously. They're white drow.

[Snoweel]

Originally Posted by rechan

shadar-kai.

Seriously. They're white drow.

dude awesome !

[Ruin Explorer]

I'm from London, supposedly the most ethnically-diverse city in the world (with the most languages spoken, etc. etc.). I don't say this to boast, but to contextualize my experience.

I connect much better with D&D images when there is at least some degree of "racial diversity". It's not that I need it for "PC" reasons, but it connects better with me and makes more sense to me when we see these groups of adventurers, supposedly consisting of people from far and wide, and they look like they're from a variety of places. I mean, further, the first fantasy movies I remember seeing were Conan the Barbarian and Conan the Destroyer, both of which featured white, asian, and black characters in both positive and negative roles (Conan's best buds are both asian in the first one, for example).

So when I see a party full of people who look like they're all very white, particularly very "nordic", and the setting doesn't clearly imply a common origin, it seems a bit wierd and hard to connect with. I imagine some from an area with a more homogenous population and different fantasy experiences might feel differently.

I do like it when there's a degree of background to it (i.e. this region's people are typically of such-and-such appearance), in a setting, but when we're talking about generalized illustrations, I don't think that's necessary. So, influence me? I dunno, but I connect better with work which features diverse humanity than "single-ethnicity" humanity (whatever that ethnicity is).

[JediSoth]

I wouldn't say racially-diverse artwork influences me, but I certainly notice it when I see it and I appreciate it. I'm so used to see only white-people fantasy that I don't notice it, but when I start seeing other ethnicities in fantasy artwork it makes me notice the artwork all that much (and not in a bad way).

What bothers me is when it's assumed that ethnic people must be depicted with the tropes and accoutrements that we associate with that ethnicity in the real world. There's no reason, in fantasy artwork, why an Asian-looking wizard can't be dressed like a classical fantasy wizard, rather than looking like Mako from Conan the Barbarian.

Personally, I think seeing ethnic diversity in artwork and fiction, especially in roles where the ethnicity of the subject doesn't matter (i.e. is not germaine to the situation) will go along way to helping people come to realize that we're all humans and not different races of white people, black people, asian people, etc. (or whatever your preferred term of address for your ethnicity is).

After writing that, I realized that I guess ethnically diverse artwork HAS influenced me postively. I grew up in a pretty bigoted household and wasn't exposed to much diversity for the first 11 years of my life. It's a miracle I didn't turn out to be a little Archie Bunker.

JediSoth

[GreatLemur]

Can't really say the art influences me at all, in that regard. My fantasy worlds are damned well going to be pan-ethnic no matter what the art looks like. The real world is, after all.

That said, Todd Lockwood is now even cooler in my book. Thanks for sharing that, Imaro. I especially dig his goal of racial ambiguity in Regdar, as I don't see any reason why a fantasy setting's human races should line up perfectly with our own racial classifications (similarly, I really, really like Exalted's hairless, piebald "panda people").

Originally Posted by JediSoth

What bothers me is when it's assumed that ethnic people must be depicted with the tropes and accoutrements that we associate with that ethnicity in the real world. There's no reason, in fantasy artwork, why an Asian-looking wizard can't be dressed like a classical fantasy wizard, rather than looking like Mako from Conan the Barbarian.

Damned good point. Unless a fantasy setting has the very clear goal of being a magical or mythic reimagining of our own Earth, there's no sense in importing Earth's cultures, or keeping familiar pairings of ethnic and cultural elements.

Hell, it's not like white people have some legitimate history of dressing like classical fantasy wizards, anyway.

[Rechan]

Also, I never really noticed Redgar's face, because I never saw him without the helmet.

[Wyrmshadows]

I am personally multi-racial (African American, Caucasian, and Cherokee) and I think that a decent amount of racial diversity in artwork is a good thing.

However, let me say upfront that if I am running a game in a traditionally Europeanesque Western Fantasy setting than I am going to presuppose that most of the NPCs are white people. In the heartlands of FR, Greyhawk, and most every fantasy setting the default is caucasian European features as the baseline.

I am ok with this because it adds versimilitude if one is running with the European default assumptions of the standard D&D/Western fantasy campaign.

It is also helpful to have a recognizable baseline with human racial types and non-human player character species. The caucasian baseline to Western fantasy is the equivalent of elves, dwarves, and halflings being the "vanilla" baseline for PC races. This vanilla baseline is useful because then you can add the exotic and it will actually be exotic.

What would make Kara Tur (or Rokugan) exotic if Asian ethnicities and cultural norms where blended utterly with pseudo-european traditional D&D? What would be exotic about Nyambe if African ethnicities and culture was blended throughout Cormyr, The Old Kingdom or Karameikos?

It is important to realize as well that one needn't be married to Earth norms, but most prefer the familiar first and then be introduced to the exotic. As a DM/GM I prefer to go traditional first and introduce the exotic to the PCs so that the players are actualy impacted by the diversity and uniqueness of other races/species/cultures.

PCs can and should be of any racial/ethic background that exist in my setting. I had a Kara Turan samurai, and warriors from Nyambe (which I added to FR...well I wanted to put it somewhere) and Zakhara in my heartlands FR campaign. I just ask that the players come up with a good backstory. Cultural clashes in RPing are great fun and can add much to the depth of the campaign.

Just like in the game, I think that the art will always reflect the baseline caucasian assumptions but it is nice to see other ethnic groups reflected in the artwork as well because even in fantasy worlds trade exists as does cultural cross pollination. And to add, I do appreciate such thoughtful sensibilities in a fantasy artist.

In the Dragonlance setting a character, one Theros Iron..something or other, was written as black (what?!?! African-Ergothian?!?!) by Wies and Hickman but was repreatedly painted as caucasian. Man, that always pissed me off. Just to vent that.


Wyrmshadows

[Imaro]

Originally Posted by Rechan

This doesn't contribute a lot, but I thought the first link was more asian. In fact, I always thought it was. I mean, the top knot alone is a very asian hairstyle, isn't it?

Now that you say Native American, I can kinda see where you're getting it, but not completely.

No I agree the first pic is Asian influenced...Native American was in reference to the druid at the bottom of the screen.

And for the record, Todd Lockwood, for not only being aware of the lack but trying to promote greater diversity has certainly moved up in my respect for him.

[aurance]

Originally Posted by Rechan

Also, I never really noticed Redgar's face, because I never saw him without the helmet.

The helmet is the face!

[Snoweel]

Originally Posted by JediSoth

I grew up in a pretty bigoted household and wasn't exposed to much diversity for the first 11 years of my life. It's a miracle I didn't turn out to be a little Archie Bunker.

Not at all.

Having limited interaction with people of differing cultures you would have been more likely to grow up in the belief that the only differences between cultural groups are the clothes we wear and the food we eat - harmless and banal differences to be sure.

[JediSoth]

Originally Posted by Snoweel

Not at all.

Having limited interaction with people of differing cultures you would have been more likely to grow up in the belief that the only differences between cultural groups are the clothes we wear and the food we eat - harmless and banal differences to be sure.

I never thought of it that way. Clearly that was more impressive upon me than my father's constant use of racial slurs to refer to anyone who wasn't white (if he didn't know them...once he got to know you, he never again referred to you with the slur word in private).

[the Jester]

I prefer racially diverse art, but in the case of something in a setting, it should match the ethnicities of the setting; art set in a Frost Barbarian village should show a bunch of Suel, for instance.

In a generic product, such as the PH, I would prefer to see a more diverse set of heroes. TL's art linked is great, and very dnd. "Exotic peoples, clothes and styles" is a fantasy trope. I think dnd should celebrate and exploit that in its artwork.

[Imaro]

@Wyrmshadow...I don't know if I'd say the "baseline" for FR or Greyhawk is necessarily caucasian features. In FR the baseline features really are dependent on where in the FR your game is taking place, in Greyhawk there are different ethnicities (with a wide variety of features) as well, and Eberron is a total mish-mash. All this is to say I don't really think caucasian is the baseline anymore for WotC's worlds.

The real thing I'm wondering is, if there is an equal spread of ethnic diversity in artwork throughout the books...would it make you less inclined to buy them? It seems the R&D team for 3e felt this way and it just seems silly to me, when looking at the actual campaign worlds WotC puts out.

[Wyrmshadows]

Originally Posted by the jester

i prefer racially diverse art, but in the case of something in a setting, it should match the ethnicities of the setting; art set in a frost barbarian village should show a bunch of suel, for instance.

In a generic product, such as the ph, i would prefer to see a more diverse set of heroes. Tl's art linked is great, and very dnd. "exotic peoples, clothes and styles" is a fantasy trope. I think dnd should celebrate and exploit that in its artwork.

qft.

[Wyrmshadows]

Originally Posted by Imaro

@Wyrmshadow...I don't know if I'd say the "baseline" for FR or Greyhawk is necessarily caucasian features. In FR the baseline features really are dependent on where in the FR your game is taking place, in Greyhawk there are different ethnicities (with a wide variety of features) as well, and Eberron is a total mish-mash. All this is to say I don't really think caucasian is the baseline anymore for WotC's worlds.

The real thing I'm wondering is, if there is an equal spread of ethnic diversity in artwork throughout the books...would it make you less inclined to buy them? It seems the R&D team for 3e felt this way and it just seems silly to me, when looking at the actual campaign worlds WotC puts out.

Well I should have clarified.

In the standard FR and Greyhawk campaigns you are generally hanging around in medieval lands analogous culturally to medieval Europe (superficially at best...because most PC have their teeth). In FR for example the default is the Dales, The Sword Coast (from Waterdeep to Baldur's Gate), and The North. Of course you can run a campaign anywhere, its just that these places are the most popular apparently and they just happen to be European analogues and more than likely to be populated most strongly by caucasian types. There is of course immigrants and tourists, but I am referring to the bulk of the given populations.

And to add, WoTC 3e R&D could piss off for thinking to pander to the narrowest and most ignorant denominator. Maybe I am blind to the reality of the world (never thought I was) but it never occurred to me that WoTC R&D would think along these lines. Very disappointing actually. Now can I tell you how I really feel?

I have a somewhat dim view of WoTC right now...thanks for validating those feelings with something more relevant than game mechanics. 4e may not be my cup o' tea, but ultimately who gives a rats arse. There are other games. However the very idea that racial considerations were a factor in 3e's art is beyond appalling to me.



Wyrmshadows

[Ruin Explorer]

Originally Posted by Wyrmshadows

In the standard FR and Greyhawk campaigns you are generally hanging around in medieval lands analogous culturally to medieval Europe (superficially at best...because most PC have their teeth). In FR for example the default is the Dales, The Sword Coast (from Waterdeep to Baldur's Gate), and The North. Of course you can run a campaign anywhere, its just that these places are the most popular apparently and they just happen to be European analogues and more than likely to be populated most strongly by caucasian types. There is of course immigrants and tourists, but I am referring to the bulk of the given populations.

I think this is pretty silly, and says more about you than the FR, frankly.

The Dales and the North are full of "pale caucasian"-types as the natives, sure, but they're also inhabited by MANY adventurers from foriegn lands, and travellers from afar. This is something that's a key feature of the Realms (and why it's not necessarily a good fit for PoL outside the North), the lengths and depths of trade and traders. Waterdeep is an extremely cosmopolitan city for example, as are many other places in the North and on the Sword Coast.

Traders and adventurers will be the bulk of the "non-locals", and many of them will settle down (indeed, or have specifically done so), not "immigrants and tourists". That's wierd 20th-century nonsense. I don't see much "mass immigration" or even "immigration" in the sense you mean it at all in the FR. Nor is there "tourism" in either the modern or original sense. There's certainly travel and trade, though.

[Huw]

Doesn't bother me. High fantasy has always been multi-ethnic. Think Earthsea, Lankhmar, Middle Earth, etc. Go back even further, many of Shakespeare's plays feature international casts. Also think of various iconic fantasy films with mixed casts, such as Conan and Beastmaster.