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I know there are other iconics. It just ticks me off that a developer just HAS to point out that he didn't want the main character to be a white male, and it must really piss him off, as he is still bothered by it. Political correctness gone mad, or racism?
Shouldn't you be calling it "white liberal guilt"?
Far be it for me to put words in the designer's mouths, but it seems like the goal was to make a multi-ethnic, multi-racial group of iconic characters working together and sharing the spotlight, and marketing decreed that there would be a group of multi-ethnic, multi-racial sidekicks to the heroic white tough guy. Sort of a D&D Superfriends.
They already had a fighter, he was a dwarf. They had white males, Jozan and Hennet. Marketing wanted a strong, white male warrior front and center, above the other characters, and that was Redgar, and that's why he's the whipping boy.
Marketing wants a "Big lug with a big sword" on the front cover. This is perfectly legitimate if you think you need to reach back to Conan and Elric or go to the FFVII well for as close as you can get to a Buster Sword in the PHB.
So who do you hand the "Big lug with a big sword," job to, exactly? If you give it to anybody other than the white guy you get accused of racist overtones by depicting "persons of color" as unintelligent / savage / defined by physicality.
Same thing goes for making a certain character "Kenny," by the way. If you put a female character or a "person of color" through all the abuse and mutilation heaped upon Regdar you risk being accused of racial intimidation or misogyny.
If you need a character to be extensively abusive, abused, depraved, or depicted as a "lug" of some sort without much in the way of special enlightenment your go-to-guy is always the random white dude - that's how people play it safe. No one who counts is allowed to be offended so you catch less flack that way.
Fantasy settings are generally well equipped to avoid this trope, though. They've got so many trans-racial options (non-human species) that you really don't need to go there. In 4th Edition they can easily make a Dragonborn be the Conan stand-in or have random Eladrin and Tiefling deaths and not have to worry about racial overtones.
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Huh. I think back to all of the times where my black and latino friends used to ask me "why do you play that white boy game" and I'd get offended and reply "It's NOT a white boy game. ANYONE can play if they have an imagination (losers...)".
After some of the responses to this thread and the previous art / diversity thread I guess those ignoramuses were right after all.
Who knew? Seriously it's threads like this that make me seriously wonder about my hobby and whether I actually have a place in it.
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Regdar has had a hell of a lot of face-time in the various D&D books, not always getting smashed to bits, either. The PHB2 in 3rd edition has at least two shots I can think of with him in the limelight, or at least front and center. So if someone wants to smash him to bits to prove a point, too, more power to 'em. Even Todek got crunched in a dragon's mouth at least once...
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Bull. If he'd been East Asian-styled no-one would have made such allegations.
Only if he had an "obviously superior to European blades" sword in his hand, though. Then you'd just get accused of "making D&D too Anime!!!!11111shiftone."
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Black, maybe.
Or non-White Hispanic or resembling Native American in some way.
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The rest of what you're saying is somewhat correct, except that you seem to think that it's an accident that in an iconic-free edition of the game, the iconic character of the previous game is being killed repeatedly.
Regdar got killed a whole lot in 3rd Edition too, and I really wouldn't call him "the iconic character" of the edition. Frankly I remember a lot more memorable living depictions of Tordek, Gimble, and Liddia than Regdar. The only one that really stuck with me was in the retraining section of the PHBII where he's trying to learn the Spiked Chain. Of course, I was always more partial to Dwarves, Bards, and Rogues in the first place.
The rest of what you're saying is somewhat correct, except that you seem to think that it's an accident that in an iconic-free edition of the game, the iconic character of the previous game is being killed repeatedly.
This is another really good point, I think he's meant to represent everything "bad" about 3rd edition that's being "killed off" with the new edition. Just my take.
This is another really good point, I think he's meant to represent everything "bad" about 3rd edition that's being "killed off" with the new edition. Just my take.
That what I was assuming too, though they do appear to be res'ing him in the Rituals Chapter. I mean, maybe the Dark Elves are going to stop them, but maybe we're going everything that was bad about 3E back in future!
Oh reading too much into things, how I love it
Seriously though, love seeing Regdar die, but love seeing all the iconics die, fall off things, catch fire etc. Maybe it's Oppositional Defiant Disorder.
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What are these Dungeon and Dragon PSAs you speak of? I really really hate the iconics, so I am particularly interested to know.
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Originally Posted by Voadam
D&D PSAs?
Ah, you'll be wanting the youtube D&D PSA's
If I put the link it will auto-embed it, which I don't want since it isn't exactly grandma-friendly, but if you go to youtube.com and append the following to the domain name
/watch?v=yHl16n7noXs
You'll be able to see it.
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I’m not sure I understand how a clearly white/nordic dwarf means more diversity than a human of ambiguous ethnicity.
Saying that dnd races have no identifiable ethnicity seems a bit hasty. Interestingly, the most intolerant and chauvinistic gamers i've met often played dwarves, with an emphasis on the race's already strong celtic or norse feel.
I get that designer wanted iconics to fit favoured classes and that Tordek was visually more striking than Regdar. But the lack of racial diversity seems like a weird reason to hate the character or abuse him in the illustrations. If the artists had such liberty, why didn’t they just make Regdar look less european, like Lockwood did?
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Last edited by lutecius; 8th July 2008 at 02:48 AM..
Seriously though, love seeing Regdar die, but love seeing all the iconics die, fall off things, catch fire etc. Maybe it's Oppositional Defiant Disorder.
Oh I dunno. I kind of miss having the iconics to kick around. I mean sure, they were all completely lame, but that's what made them so much fun. We could all come together as a community to mock Hennett or talk about how Mialee was the ugliest elf wizard ever conceived, or make Krusk talk in the 3rd person and ponder how Kerwyn was the least popular iconic ever.
Then again, having cool, diverse character designs is better for sparking the imagination, and I never have to fear flipping through an arcane book and running into a full-page Mialee picture in some akward pose some poor artist apparently thought was sexy for someone who didn't look like a bug.
Surely, some compromise can be found? An introductory book full of cheeserific iconic characters that we can all laugh at? Another irressistably bad novel line written under pen names, so no one has to admit they wrote that book where Hennet and Ember hooked up? Hmmm....
Because Jozan and Hennet weren't enough white human dudes? What you even talking about? Kerwyn too. Jesus, how many white human men do we need exactly before it's not "peeing in marketing cornflakes"? I guess "more than three!". Seems like your position is untenable to me.
His position is perfectly tenable. They needed exactly one. But they needed that one to be the classic warrior frontman. Not because a woman or any other race would not be accepted, but because a white male would be the most universally accepted amongst the target audience. Yeah, there are lots of other demographics, no one is doubting that. But if you don't think young white males are greatly over-represented amongst gamers with respect to their pure population numbers, then I think you haven't been around much.
The only other optimal marketing choice would have been a white female in skimpy clothes, and that would have been much worse.
And truly, once you get past all the PC BS, it isn't even about any kind of racial quality comparison. It is about making it as absolutely easy as possible for the would be customer to look at a cover or walk past a stand up and see their self in the picture. A young white male could think Will Smith's Hancock is the absolute coolest hero character ever to grace the screen and still find it easier to identify with Peter Parker. Perception of relative racial quality has nothing to do with it.
To the contrary, I get sick of the BS "more enlightened than thou" attitude that tries to force social injustice into anything and everything, regardless of how misplaced that view may be.
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You know, this is one of those things where I was always completely in the dark. I never looked too closely at the cover art when it depicted to iconics, so I always assumed that Regdar was black. Even after 'playing' the interactive DVD, I still assumed he was black, and I was totally cool with it.
My personal preferences are usually to play the meat shield, usually as a white guy, but not for any particular reason. One of my friends in a D20 Modern game I ran played a black man. He's not black in real life. Another one of my friends always plays a female with red hair in any game we play, whether it be an RPG or an MMO. Yet another friend of mine always plays a male character who is quite a bit older (I think the median age he plays is about 45). My wife likes to play axe wielding foul-mouthed dwarves.
My point here is that I agree with Monte that players can and do see beyond themselves, and that it is absolutely a good thing to use characters of a variety of ethnicities and races as iconics.
I thought Regdar was racially ambiguous, but if I had to call it, I would have said he looked black in the PHB. When I watched the Scourge of Worlds interactive DVD, Regdar definitely seemed like a black man to me. I thought that was cool.
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Ah, someone else has already posted the D&D PSA link. My advice- start with the first one. Later ones build a bit on inside jokes established in the earlier episodes.
Just to throw fuel on the fire, may I remind everyone that we just had a lengthy thread in which multiple people repeatedly explained to me (I've a thick skull, they had to keep explaining and I still don't get it) that default D&D ought not to have black people in european styled armor?
I know there are other iconics. It just ticks me off that a developer just HAS to point out that he didn't want the main character to be a white male, and it must really piss him off, as he is still bothered by it. Political correctness gone mad, or racism?
Did you read the first part of Monte's post, where, for years the only characters that could be depicted on the front of a TSR module was a white male?
Did you read the middle part, where he ticked off the reasons why this was a stupid policy?
Did you read the end part, where he said that there was an agreement that this nonsense was dead and gone, and marketing -- because they believe that white dudes will only pick up products featuring white dudes, which raises some interesting questions about rap music's popularity in the suburbs -- forced it on them?
This isn't political correctness: This is fighting against a wrong-headed and stupid marketing-driven decision about what appears in your D&D books.
So who do you hand the "Big lug with a big sword," job to, exactly? If you give it to anybody other than the white guy you get accused of racist overtones by depicting "persons of color" as unintelligent / savage / defined by physicality.
I call. Show me such a complaint by someone other than random_usenet_flamer_01.
I don't buy this argument at all, especially since Monte, who was there, says that it's because marketing doesn't believe white guys will buy a product not featuring white guys prominently.
There wasn't any "reverse racism." They were just tired of always being mandated to put the big white male lead everywhere, so they finally said "Screw it, this is BS. We're making it a dwarf."
Then marketing said "HAH HAH OR SO YOU THOUGHT!"
So the disgruntled artists did what disgruntled people across the centuries have always done - they were snippy little pricks about it and made sure the marketing poster child was killed and maimed as much as they could.
I don't really see the "reverse racism." Marketing was the one demanding racism/sexism, and the artists were irritated and showed their disgust by humiliating the character they hated. if you see "reverse racism" in this, good lord do you have too much time on your hands.
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A little perspective, folks; please don't drag in racism where a marketing decision was made to circumvent the creative team. It's a different kettle of fish, and we'd rather not have the thread shoot off on a tangent.
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When I worked at TSR, there was always basically a truism in cover art--the central figure had to be a white male. Most of us actually helping to create the cover art, either by conceiving it or actually creating it, hated that kind of outlook, but the powers that be believed that our audience was entirely white males and they needed someone that they could identify with on the cover.
Now my question is... isn't this a self perpetuating attitude? If you believe white males will be turned off from a game by having a different ethnicity grace the cover of a book... well logic says the opposite is also true. I mean if you aren't trying to grow or expand your market... then it makes perfect sense. However if you are, then not so much.
As a black gamer it disturbs me that, while I hadn't given much thought to this issue until I happened upon Todd Lockwood's comments, it was a conscious decision on the part of marketing to take this approach. I ask myself if I and those like me are looked at as so marginal that we are not a consideration in marketing the game, then why support the game. Especially when there are so many that do in this day and age.
I will admit, it's kind of soured me a little towards WotC and D&D in general. On the other hand I can make a conscious choice to support companies who apparently, through their decisions, feel that I am not so marginal when it comes to being a part of their customer base as to not even be a consideration.
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I consider things like the Iconics and the cover to be almost 100% a marketing decision. I really don't think the "creative team" should be involved in it at all.
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