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__________________ Robert Blezard I write; therefore, I am!
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4e Greyhawk (coming earliest 2010, latest 2012) will restart the setting in circa 576CY.
There will be no timeline advance. Rather, there will be a timeline retrograde.
In the restart, the Flanaess will be reimagined. Everything that has “happened” in published products will “never have happened” unless it is specifically reincorporated in the restarted setting.
The Greyhawk Wars will never have occurred. There will never have been demon armies rampaging all over. However, Iuz will be on the march and the “bad guy of the North.”
The Scarlet Brotherhood will never have been “outed” by going for an empire. It will be a “general” bad guy found everywhere - sneaky, silent, unseen.
The Great Kingdom will be caught in a quasi-civil war with lots of politics, magic and religion. No undead animus rulers. No United Kingdom of Ahlissa. No Great Kingdom of the North. Medegia is not a wasteland. The Iron League and Nyrond stand opposed. Its “old school” 83Greyhawk in this area with the volume turned up to 11.
The Sheldomar Valley (Keoland and smaller states) will be “monster central” as monsters (giants, dragons, drow etc.) attack civilization relentlessly. Think Points of Light dialed all the way up.
The City of Greyhawk will be the “center of it all” where things start or come together. Everything in D&D will fit somewhere in the central region of the Flanaess around Greyhawk to include the Wild Coast (Turrosh-Mak and the Empire of the Pomarj will never have happened). The Circle of Eight will function as a premade “mission control.”
Celene will be moved into the Feywild with the addition of Eladrins. Celene will be sort of like a “fortress” from which fey forces sally forth to fight evil.
The Bandit Kingdoms and the Rift Canyon will be “dungeon-land” where all things dungeony can be readily found. Lots of dragons too. Speaking of which.
Dragonborn will be incorporated. They will be from “off the map” to the south in the Amedio/Hepmonaland.
The Tieflings will be incorporated. They will not be monolithic, as in a nation. Rather, they will have origins in the Horned Society, the Sea of Dust, the Lands of Iuz, the Land of Black Ice etc. Essentially, where there are evil planar influences, there will be Tieflings. More on this below.
The idea is to compartmentalize Greyhawk into the ultimate “classic play” menu of a setting with “zones”:
What to kill monsters? Play in the Sheldomar.
Want heroics and politics with evil wizards and evil high priests oppressing people who must be stopped? Play in the Great Kingdom, Nyrond or the Iron League.
Want to oppose the One Big Evil Guy? Play in the north against Iuz.
Want to go exploring ancient ruins and dugeons, see the BK and the Rift Canyon.
Want everything in one spot? One organizing principle? Play in the City of Greyhawk/Central Flanaess - adventure-in-can-land.
This split will essentially “define” Greyhawk as the Flanaess. Other areas will be marginalized (the Baklunish West as “genie-land” the exception). There will also be some geographical changes to Oerth (but I have no sense of the extent or details at this moment).
The cosmology of Greyhawk will not be the Great Wheel. Given the premise of the restart, Greyhawk’s cosmology will be 4e standard and will have “always been that way.”
The new cosmology will also be the restarted Greyhawk’s “McGuffin” or new animating force. The restart described above is intended to “keep Greyhawk as Greyhawk.” On top of that will be “the hook” that can neatly summarize the setting - why do you play here?
Tharizdun will be name to conjure with - The Fight Against the Dark God! But in the process, Tharizdun will function almost as a convenient means to introduce numerous other planar elements, in the sense that PCs must traverse the planes and deal with planar incursions into Greyhawk as a necessary part of - The Fight Against the Dark God! Its almost Greyhawk meets Planescape. Sort of. Maybe better to say Planescape (but not 2e Planescape in any pure sense, rather The PLANES) within a Greyhawk context or frame. The idea is that the planar aspect will not be so pronounced (more subtle) as to overpower the Greyhawk elements; the Greyhawk elements are to remain the focus but with a very strong planar theme. However, individual designs are unpredictable, naturally.
So saying, the above is only what I have been able to suss out post-Con Season (and I’m not infallable by any means) and is waaaaay in advance of the range of release dates. Stuff could change. However, I feel comfortable posting the foregoing and saying at this time “Remember, you heard it here first.”
I’m not altogether sanguine about this 4eHawk, largely because it trashes the idea of established “canon,” intentionally just as the 100 year timeline advance did in the Realms. I get the “logic” but as a long time fan I can only think of this as “OtherHawk.” Still, I will admit I see some cool possibilities here. I just wish I knew about potential geographical changes to make the map of the Flanaess appear “cooler” and immediately “new.”
And if you want to say I’m off my rocker. That I’m speculating or delusional. That I don’t know jack. Or worse. (Well, maybe not worse) Go ahead. Please just remember all that when we are discussing “OtherHawk” in a few years and recall, “You heard it here first.” Who knows? It could be cool. Possibly. :shock:
__________________ Robert Blezard I write; therefore, I am!
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And I would be so sad they did not do the same thing to Faerun as well.
Yep. If they do take Greyhawk back to the beginning and just start over, it will be great, IMO.
And, they should have done that for the Forgotten Realms. I don't like the 4e version of the Realms. It's just not the same anymore.
__________________ Robert Blezard I write; therefore, I am!
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I have serious obsessive compulsive completionist issues and after the previews I was so dissapointed I did not buy the FRCG. That is like a first for me.
If they do publish such a Greyhawk, I might actually play there again after over a decade.
They keep making a series of “unexpected” decisions about the settings. I wonder what is in store for Eberron, Ravenloft and any of the other classics to be revised.
Yep. If they do take Greyhawk back to the beginning and just start over, it will be great, IMO.
And, they should have done that for the Forgotten Realms. I don't like the 4e version of the Realms. It's just not the same anymore.
This writeup reads like wishful thinking to me, so I'm skeptical, but there is one reason that Greyhawk could be rebooted while Dragonlance and the Realms never will be, as I alluded to on the 4E DL thread.
Novels.
The novels are big money-makers for WotC--I'd be willing to bet as big or bigger than the game lines--and there are enough novels that are kept perennially in print or regularly reprinted, and that hinge off of the setting's history, that reboots for those two lines would be seen as splitting or killing the cash cow.
With no novel lines for Greyhawk, and only reprints for Dark Sun and Ravenloft (they've stripped out all the Ravenloft references from the marketing for the stillborn Dominion line novels like Heaven's Bones and Mithras' Court, but the former at least retains all the references in the text), reboots of those settings would seem more probable. An Athas just before the Prism Pentad, or concurrent with it but without any of the other strangeness I heard about, might actually attract more fans than picking up where they left off.
I dearly love this idea. I hope they take this track with Dragonlance as well. In fact, I hope they make a time machine, go back in time a year or two, and then make Forgotten Realms this way to boot.
These are RPG settings, not classic literature. They should be relaunched for each generation, reinventing themselves while preserving their essential character.
Agreed. This sounds pretty danged great. Where do I pre-order?
Perhaps the only thing I have real issue with is the use of the "core" 4E cosmology and not GH's. Though it's not awful. Switch a few names I guess.
Not a fan of Dragonborn either, but that will be an easy fix if it goes down the way hinted at.
But there's some great "retro"changes" listed, def enough to counter the 2 negatives that stuck out to me.
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I'm amused by Canonfire's near-unanimous venom at the suggestion of abandoning the whole Greyhawk Wars theme. AFAIC, this ("From the Ashes", etc) was not Gygax's Greyhawk, but a deliberate post-Gygax change-up designed to protect their "acquisition" from future legal action from the setting's creator.
I love the Folio and '83 Box Step: if 4E brings Greyhawk back to this golden age, I'm totally onboard for it.
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Well if WotC wasn't planning this already, they ought to consider it now. I think it's a frakking brilliant idea.
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This writeup reads like wishful thinking to me, so I'm skeptical, but there is one reason that Greyhawk could be rebooted while Dragonlance and the Realms never will be, as I alluded to on the 4E DL thread.
Novels.
The novels are big money-makers for WotC--I'd be willing to bet as big or bigger than the game lines--and there are enough novels that are kept perennially in print or regularly reprinted, and that hinge off of the setting's history, that reboots for those two lines would be seen as splitting or killing the cash cow.
True. I hadn't considered that but that's because I rarely read Dragonlance or Forgotten Realms novels anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew L. Martin
With no novel lines for Greyhawk, and only reprints for Dark Sun and Ravenloft (they've stripped out all the Ravenloft references from the marketing for the stillborn Dominion line novels like Heaven's Bones and Mithras' Court, but the former at least retains all the references in the text), reboots of those settings would seem more probable. An Athas just before the Prism Pentad, or concurrent with it but without any of the other strangeness I heard about, might actually attract more fans than picking up where they left off.
I could see a reboot of Dark Sun too but I think I'd enjoy that less, especially if they retcon the new 4e races into the setting. Dark Sun is unique because of its races. If they force Dragonborn and Tieflings (as well as gnomes and orcs) into the setting, I'll be pissed.
Greyhawk is the classic D&D setting that can go back to the beginning and start over without any difficulty. Mystara could be revised in such a way as well, IMO.
__________________ Robert Blezard I write; therefore, I am!
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Well if WotC wasn't planning this already, they ought to consider it now. I think it's a frakking brilliant idea.
Well, here's another of GVDammerung's posts from the same thread. His info is "second hand," but it's too good to ignore, IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GVDammerung @ Canonfire!
Quote:
Originally Posted by grodog @ Canonfire!
So GVD, is this pure speculation on your part or are parts of what you stated from seminars @ GenCon, or from insider sources, etc., etc.? Just curious!
I did not attend Gencon. However, I have friends who did. So, up front, my "information" is second hand. That said, the information is derived from seminars and conversations had with individuals who ostensibly are in positions to know or hear things and my own reading of the resulting tea leaves. Like a weather forecast, there is an inevitable "bust" factor. If you asked me to put a percentage on my level of confidence I'd say:
70% chance there is a GH 4e as of today; and
75% chance it will look pretty much as described.
I feel very comfortable with my "forecast." In one forum or another, I called the year of 4e's launch. I called the Realms changes. I called the terms of the GSL Mk I. I called Paizo sticking with 3.5 (actually I publically advocated for it back last September on CF and the Paizo boards).
{snip}
More info should be forthcoming at the DDX and next Con Season. Like a hog looking for truffles, I will be keeping my nose to the ground.
I am definitely going to the Cons next year. Triple20 spoke of influence - putting on some type of GH seminar might be just what the doctor ordered. Word to the wise. It could also be fun. Rattle those bushes and see what comes out.
__________________ Robert Blezard I write; therefore, I am!
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No offense to GVDammerung (he's a poster on these forums, also) but this seems awfully unlikely. I'd love to know the official mouth that uttered this stuff. It is DEFINITELY not WotC's style to retcon what has gone before, and never has been, to my recollection.
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Last edited by Henry; 18th September 2008 at 06:07 AM..
No offense to GVDammerung (he's a poster on these forums, also) but this seems awfully unlikely. I'd love to know the official mouth that uttered this stuff. It is DEFINITELY not WotC's style to retcon what has gone before, and never has been, to my recall.
That's a good point. Maybe we can get him to give us some more about this. Like, who did his friend talk to? Then again, his friend may not want to give up his source.
Perhaps someone from WotC would be willing to comment. Where's that Rouse guy?
__________________ Robert Blezard I write; therefore, I am!
D&D v.3.5, d20 Modern, OSRIC, Pathfinder, True20... OGL Forever! Walk the Road
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Perhaps someone from WotC would be willing to comment. Where's that Rouse guy?
More likely, we won't get a peep. At this point in time, this, and the Dragonlance 4e stuff, is as likely idle chatter that was batted around the conference room shortly before the flight to Gencon, and then repeated to fans from some of the designers. That kind of stuff no one will touch with a ten foot pole, much less an official comment.
__________________ "Conversely, I'm amazed at the number of people queueing up to tell people that don't like 4e that they are wrong. Why can't people just agree to disagree, and get on with actually playing the game?" --Delericho
If there's one dragon, it's a solo monster.
If there's five dragons, they're standard monsters.
If there's a dozen dragons, either most of them are minions or your DM is tired of the campaign.
--Lizard
More likely, we won't get a peep. At this point in time, this, and the Dragonlance 4e stuff, is as likely idle chatter that was batted around the conference room shortly before the flight to Gencon, and then repeated to fans from some of the designers. That kind of stuff no one will touch with a ten foot pole, much less an official comment.
Yeah, I know. It will be a long time before WotC says anything but I can always hope. I'm not a fan of 4e at all, but I'd be willing to give the game a real try if WotC redoes Greyhawk from the beginning.
Of course, if they do Dark Sun first then I'll be getting every 4e book for the setting as long as they don't butcher it.
__________________ Robert Blezard I write; therefore, I am!
D&D v.3.5, d20 Modern, OSRIC, Pathfinder, True20... OGL Forever! Walk the Road
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I'm generally a fan of letting continuity run for 10-15 years, let the setting accumulate ideas good and bad, and restart and reimagine it. Incorporate the good ideas, discard the bad, maybe do something slightly different but keep it recognizable.
So all these things would be good selling points for me to take another at Greyhawk, even though I only ever really played it in the early days of the Living Campaign.
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