General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
A lot of people probably wonder about these, without realizing how they were actually used. Their construction seems to emphasize protection at the expense of everything else, including the ability to see, move your head or breathe. Though they aren't nearly as restrictive as they seem of course, there is something to that. But there is a reason for it.
Great Helms or Heaumes were worn for the cavalry charge essentially, and taken off for hand to hand or close fighting. Even more surprising to most people, a second helmet was worn underneath the Heaume, usually a bascinet or a simpler skull cap like a Cervelliere, such as the ones these guys are wearing:
That is where the term helmet comes from, it means little helm. Common soldiers would often have no other protection, but knights also had the Great helm. It was not unusual in fact for a knight to hang his helm on a strap off of his back, like this guy:
Now there is a good reason for wearing two helmets. Number one is the added face protection of the Helm, needed when facing lance strikes, but number two is that a little extra metal between you and an opponent on another horse was a really good idea.
A sword swung by a man travels through the air around 20-30 mph. Swinging from a charging horse can effectively double that speed, and therefore the energy, of that cut. Even more dangerous against a helmet with a mace or an axe.
The impacts are so strong when striking from horseback that weapons intended for cavalry were designed specifically for retention (i.e. so they don't fly out of your hand). For example light maces used by cavalry had leather wrist-thongs. And did you ever wonder why sabers have a canted grip?
it's to help keep it in your hand when you hit something with it at 30 miles per hour.
Same for the hook like grips on "scimetars" like this Turkish killic
or this Russian Shashka
It's also the reason for their curved blades. Basically every curved blade in the world (except inwardly curved blades) was initially designed as a cavalry weapon specialized for draw-cuts. Including Tachis and Katanas.
The significance of all this is that hitting from horseback confers a lot of extra power. This should be factored into DnD in my opinion. Not just for lances, but any weapon used from a charging horse should probably do double damage, perhaps it could be linked to a feat like Ride By Attack.
The great helm went away when two things happened, first, movable visors began to be built into bascinets, leading for example ot the famous "pig-faced" bascinet,
as well as various other types of infantry helmets such as
armets,
sallets,
burgonettes etc.
This allowed for full face protection during a charge or while under missile fire, while retaining the vision of an open helmet for fighting hand to hand or for various other circumstances.
The second reason is that armor, which had up to this point been made of iron, began to be made of tempered steel. Tempered steel was in the real life what mythril is in DnD. Much stronger than regular iron for half the mass.
G.
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Last edited by Galloglaich; 1st June 2009 at 08:18 PM..
Reason: fixing broken image links...though they will break again
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I'd never heard of the two helmets thing before. I learn something new from this thread with each new post. For me, this is by far the best thread here. Keep it up man. You'll have us all educated eventually!
__________________ Mark "El Mahdi" Armstrong - Semper Operor Verus
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Hey haven't been around in a while, I thought I was overdue for a post on this thread.
On another forum a guy asked this question:
Quote:
I've read a lot about sword training and training manuals like I.33, but how often were these actually used historically? I find it hard to believe that every soldier with a sword in, for example, the Battle of Hastings, or Agincourt was trained with a sword (at least under a "master"). How did average soldiers train themselves during the Middle Ages for sword fighting (or any weapons use for that matter)? Did they have instructors train them? Did they use texts to train themselves?
This is something which comes up a lot, and I think a lot of people really wonder about. So I'm taking a crack at it.
The manuals like I.33, those in the Lichtenauer tradition and etc. did not spring up out of thin air. They were reflections, maybe refinements, of martial arts traditions that went back aeons in Europe. Exactly like the traditions of what we know today as Kung Fu, Karate, Silat etc. in various parts of Asia. I know this is hard for a lot of people to understand today, but that is what the manuals reflect.
These martial arts traditions and explicit training for them, are not exactly a huge mystery. To this day there are numerous, myriad European martial arts kind of hiding in plain sight. The most obvious example is our modern form of 'Graeco -Roman' wrestling was an ancient tradition going back to the pre-history of the Greeks, who practiced a kind of Mixed Martial Art they called Pankration .
In Medieval Japan, the equivalent of this was Jujitsu. In Medieval Europe, the equivalent was called Ringen or Kampfringen, and when used with a weapon, Rignen Am Schwert. There may be a direct link to the earlier Mediterranean systems, some of the most famous masters of Ringen were Jews, such as Ott Jud and Jud Lew.
Many of the underlying skills for fighting were also made into various sports. The sports which made up the original olympic games, the javelin, wrestling (pankration), boxing, the discus, running, jumping etc. were directly related to martial arts, as were the famous and usually somewhat caricatured Medieval Tournament of the knightly aristocracy. Fewer people are aware of the many similar traditions among the common classes. The Bridge Fighting in Italian Cities such as Venice, wherein people from the various neighborhoods would stage pitched battles with sticks etc. are just one example.
Traditions like this exist in hundreds of towns around Europe, in some cases evolving into quaint, comedic events popular with tourists like the tomatana in Bunol, Spain.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdgVULWrPfE&feature=related"]YouTube - Kelly packard en La Tomatina[/ame]
These kinds of traditions kept combat skills honed in the cities where the best foot soldiers often emerged in Medieval Europe. In the rural areas martial arts were kept alive with games like Hurling in Ireland and Norse Scandinavia, which goes back at least to the 4th century AD and was practiced all across Pagan Europe under various other names. Lacrosse played a similar role in many Native American cultures such as the Lakota and the Iroquois. In both cases 'games' were often like pitched battles lasting several days, in which people were not infrequently killed, and used to decide issues such as the boundaries between regions etc.
Hurling is mentioned in the Táin Bó Cúailnge, played by hero Cúchulainn, as well as the Fenian Cycle by Finn MaCool. Similar games are described in numerous Viking Sagas, a high importance was placed on them, as well as on board games Training is specifically described in some detail, in the various stories heroes like CuCullain and Finn McCool spent time being trained, interestingly enough under the tutelage of women. The specific 'Feats' they learned to accomplish, such as running through a forest barefoot without snagging on a thorn, or standing in a pit and fending off javelins thrown by 5 men, were described in the Ulster Cycle and the Fenian Cycle.
In the Battle of Hastings. The effective, if not victorious Saxon armies which took that field were created by systematic training. When the Barbarian Norse stormed into England in the 9th Century they found easy pickings among the Feudal Saxon peasants most of whom had been systematically disarmed and no longer retained their military skills. Alfred the Great had to revive the old militia and recreate the system of Burhs (forts) where the Saxons were encouraged to drill. This paid off great dividends which ultimately kept the Vikings at bay in his kingdom of Wessex, leading to the treaty with the Norse and the Danelaw partition of England.
Other militias were more successful - so much so that they became the most valuable mercenaries in Europe. The famous Swiss mercenaries of course were actually militias of the various towns and cantons, to hire them you made a contract with the local town council. The order of battle for famous clashes like Morgarten, Sempach or Grandson reads like a cross section of the Medieval civil economy: bakers guild, butchers guild, weavers guild etc. The Swiss like many tribal militias, drilled regularly and also developed new weapons such as the Halberd and improved variations of the crossbow, and trained with their characteristic short sword (the baselard), the bastard sword, and later, the true two hander or zweihander. Each village or town district would report with their weapons, bearing arms gave you a vote, this is a tradition which continued in the Swiss district of Appenzel until the 1990s, and goes back to pre-historic times. It was known to the Medieval Scandinavians and Migration era Germans as a waepentake a foundational component the Eidgenossenschaft or sworn brotherhood, which was the basis of many Germanic, Celtic and Scandinavian militias. Hundred (country subdivision) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Eidgenossenschaft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Finally, professional soldiers groups, form the VikingLaegs, (sworn brotherhoods) to the Renaissance Landsknechts all trained systematically, and included in their ranks fencing masters. In the increasingly literate Renaissance, we see documentation of fencing brotherhoods or fraternities which evolved from these professional soldiers. These were primarily civilians of the middle classes who obsessively trained in period fencing techniques. The most famous of these were the MarxBruder (Brotherhood of St. Mark) of Germany and the Federfechter ("Feather fighters" or "Free Fencers") of Prague.
These Fraternities were directly linked to the Masters and their Fechtbuchen, and included several of the Masters we know today as well as famous individuals such as Albrecht Durer, (who few people realize, was the author of a Fechtbuch himself)
In this period they trained in gymnasiums much like the Greeks in the Classical Era, and special buildings they called Fechtschules.
Some of these very same Fechtschules are still around and are now being used by modern HEMA practitioners
We don't know for sure how far back these arts go in Northern Europe, other than the few tantalizing details mentioned in insular literature such as the Icelandic Sagas and Irish Ulster Cycle etc. Before the Renaissance there were not many truly literate societies in Europe, so what we do know about training methods comes to us primarily in the form of epic poems and folk tales etc.
Well trained Militias were common throughout Europe, another example was in the Kievan Rus which found it's greatest (defensive) strength in it's militia the Veche, which as with the Vikings and the Swiss. It was similar in many regions of Spain during the Reconquista in Spain (see almogovars, upthread). The Italian renaissance city-states were much the same way, the famous crossbowmen of the Genoese militia were hired from the town itself to fight for foreign armies and only later become mercenaries.
The Flemish army that defeated the French nobility at Golden Spurs were militia, largely composed of militias composed of artisans guilds.
Again, this has a strong parallel even in ancient times, the Greek Hoplite or Peltast, the Athenian sailor or marine of the Persian wars were not for the most part professionals (except in the case of Sparta) but essentially town militia. All these folks had their feet in two worlds, the military and the civilian, and for them, training for war was part of the reality of life in a dangerous world.
G.
__________________
Check out the historically-based combat system that has gamers talking around the world: The Codex Martialis, your gateway to the elegant, lethal Martial Arts of ancient Europe and Japan. Fast-paced, cinematic combat is available for your OGL game today. Find out why all the reviewers raved over this system. Make combat exciting again!
Discuss the Codex Martialis system with other players and game designers, learn about new ideas and beta test upcoming releases at www.codexmartialis.com
Last edited by Galloglaich; 18th April 2009 at 09:30 PM..
Notice the difference in how this guy fights from the re-enactors in the later segments. Dave (the guy with the fencing mask and the white nylon longsword) is using actual historical techniques based on 500 year old fencing manuals from the German Lichtenauer tradition.
G.
__________________
Check out the historically-based combat system that has gamers talking around the world: The Codex Martialis, your gateway to the elegant, lethal Martial Arts of ancient Europe and Japan. Fast-paced, cinematic combat is available for your OGL game today. Find out why all the reviewers raved over this system. Make combat exciting again!
Discuss the Codex Martialis system with other players and game designers, learn about new ideas and beta test upcoming releases at www.codexmartialis.com
Jaws I can handle. I'm not really afraid of sharks. Barracudas, moray eels, even jellyfish and such horrid oddities as sea snakes, mantis shrimp, sea nettles and portuguese man of war I can live with, but when I saw this Animal Oddities - ABC News] it was too much for me to handle. What the heck is this thing? Is this for real? Where do these horrific creatures live?
It's a four foot long worm that was 'found' eating the fish in a public aquarium, has jaws that can break coral and can permanently "numb" humans with it's stingers.
So I got really curious about this thing, it immediately reminded me of some old medieval tales of Wyrms from various Sagas and chronicles, like the Sockburn Wyrm or one of those other strange beasties, but more on that in a minute.
The first thing I ran across when searching for more information on these polycheates worms were some really evocative cryptozoological articles.
Our friend "Barry" from the aquarium could have some bigger cousins out there, namely the "Con Rit" aka Giant Sea Centipede, at least one Crypto writer posits it is related to this critter, which according to this article gets about 10' in some known variants
But gamers and fans of DnD might be particularly interested in some other much older stories. There are many interesting old Medieval stories of "wyrms" in Europe which made it into the public records, including this story I remembered of a "wyrm" which was found as a small animal, thrown in a well, where it proceeded to grow to monstrous size and eventually became a public nuisance.
The description of the “beast” reminds me a lot of our friend Barry
Quote:
The story states that the young John Lambton was a rebellious character who missed church one Sunday to go fishing in the River Wear. In many versions of the story, while walking to the river, or setting up his equipment, John receives warnings from an old man that no good can come from missing church. John Lambton does not catch anything until the time the church service finishes, at which point he fishes out a small eel- or lamprey-like creature with nine holes on each side of its salamander-like head. Depending on the version of the story the worm is no bigger than a thumb, or about 3 feet long. In some renditions it has legs, while in others it is said to more closely resemble a snake. At this point the old man returns, although in some versions it is a different character. John declares that he has caught the devil and decides to dispose of his catch by discarding it down a nearby well. The old man then issues further warnings about the nature of the beast. John then forgets about the creature and eventually grows up. As a penance for his rebellious early years he joins the crusades.
Probably a very tenuous link, but interesting for gamers nonetheless, maybe fodder for some game ideas? It's got my creative juices flowing like Barry's mouth while he's sizing up a yellow tang
Next post: more cool Wyrm legends including the historical origins of Lewis Carols Jaberwock and the Vorpal blade which slew it snicker snack…
G.
__________________
Check out the historically-based combat system that has gamers talking around the world: The Codex Martialis, your gateway to the elegant, lethal Martial Arts of ancient Europe and Japan. Fast-paced, cinematic combat is available for your OGL game today. Find out why all the reviewers raved over this system. Make combat exciting again!
Discuss the Codex Martialis system with other players and game designers, learn about new ideas and beta test upcoming releases at www.codexmartialis.com
Last edited by Galloglaich; 9th April 2009 at 11:56 PM..
Brief segue before I do the next Wyrm post, (maybe later tonight) someone linked this article on a forum I'm on, it's fascinating and really good fodder for any campaign set in an urban environment; an in-depth article on knife fighting in Holland 1650-1750 based on court records
__________________
Check out the historically-based combat system that has gamers talking around the world: The Codex Martialis, your gateway to the elegant, lethal Martial Arts of ancient Europe and Japan. Fast-paced, cinematic combat is available for your OGL game today. Find out why all the reviewers raved over this system. Make combat exciting again!
Discuss the Codex Martialis system with other players and game designers, learn about new ideas and beta test upcoming releases at www.codexmartialis.com
"Beware the Jabberwock, my son! The jaws that bite, the claws that catch! Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun The frumious Bandersnatch!"
He took his vorpal sword in hand: Long time the manxome foe he sought -- So rested he by the Tumtum tree, And stood awhile in thought.
And, as in uffish thought he stood, The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame, Came whiffling through the tulgey wood, And burbled as it came!
One, two! One, two! And through and through The vorpal blade went snicker-snack! He left it dead, and with its head He went galumphing back. "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves Did gyre and gimble in the wabe; All mimsy were the borogoves, And the mome raths outgrabe."
-Lewis Caroll Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There, 1872
Before the spiked chain, there was a far more elegant and less random weapon available to Twinks the world wide. The Vorpal Blade.
Many people know the origins of the most famous and beloved uber-weapons of AD&D, which still exists in later versions, albiet in somewhat less formidable format. It was lifted from this 1872 poem by Lewis Caroll.
Some might say, Galloglaich, surely this classic DnD weapon is the kind of fun nonesense we love in fantasy RPGs which has no Historical roots at all.
Needless to say, I would go to my library and crack a few books before answering that question, but I wouldn't be surprised to end up finding something surprising and interesting.
Turns out, this rather odd looking Falchion may be the real historical inspiration of the Vorpal blade. Not a pretty sword, as swords go, but a formidable head-lopper by the look of it. It's one of the oldest relatively pristine European swords in the world, and it has quite a history. It's known as the Conyers Falchion, and according to English legal records, it was used to slay a dragon.
Lewis Caroll happened to grow up in Durham, England, a place swarming with legends. One of the most famous of these was that of the Sockburn Wyrm. Prose and poems far older than Lewis Caroll described the legend, the beast, and it's ultimate demise at the hands of Sir John Conyers.
"Sr Jo Conyers of Storkburn Knt who slew ye monstrous venoms and poysons wiverms Ask or worme which overthrew and Devourd many people in fight, for the scent of poyson was soo strong, that no person was able to abide it, yet he by the providence of god overthrew it and lyes buried at Storkburn before the Conquest, but before he did enterprise it (having but one sonne) he went to the Church in compleat armour and offered up his sonne to the holy ghost, which monument is yet to see, and the place where the serpent lay is called Graystone."
(From British Museum MS Harleian No. 2118, fo. 39, circa 1625-49)
Sockburn Hall, a crumbling 19th Century ediface built upon an earlier 13th Century Church. Can anyone say, Adventure HooK?
After he slayed the beast in 1063 AD, Sir John gave his trusty falchion to the local Prince Bishop as proof of his fealty, and was awarded lands which have remained in his family to this day. From that day on each new Prince-Bishop of Durham was presented with the sword that killed the worm upon entering their new office, with the following speach:
"My Lord Bishop. I hereby present you with the falchion wherewith the champion Conyers slew the worm, dragon or fiery flying serpent which destroyed man, woman and child; in memory of which the king then reigning gave him the manor of Sockburn, to hold by this tenure, that upon the first entrance of every bishop into the county the falchion should be presented."
Lewis Caroll knew this legend, had probably seen the Falchion, and was living right next to where it was stored when he originally wrote that poem in his youth.
Next time, a famous Viking tangles with a notorious pair of Wyrms, earning his curious nickname.
G.
__________________
Check out the historically-based combat system that has gamers talking around the world: The Codex Martialis, your gateway to the elegant, lethal Martial Arts of ancient Europe and Japan. Fast-paced, cinematic combat is available for your OGL game today. Find out why all the reviewers raved over this system. Make combat exciting again!
Discuss the Codex Martialis system with other players and game designers, learn about new ideas and beta test upcoming releases at www.codexmartialis.com
Last edited by Galloglaich; 21st April 2009 at 09:55 PM..
(This last one, previously mentioned in the thread, was also the inspiration for Bram Stokers 'Lair of the White Worm' and the somewhat campy but fun 1988 film of the same name, featuring a far more attractive Wyrm than that horrid bristleworm.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AQLOJ-0uZ8"]YouTube - The Lair of the White Worm (trailer)[/ame]
G.
__________________
Check out the historically-based combat system that has gamers talking around the world: The Codex Martialis, your gateway to the elegant, lethal Martial Arts of ancient Europe and Japan. Fast-paced, cinematic combat is available for your OGL game today. Find out why all the reviewers raved over this system. Make combat exciting again!
Discuss the Codex Martialis system with other players and game designers, learn about new ideas and beta test upcoming releases at www.codexmartialis.com
Last edited by Galloglaich; 21st April 2009 at 11:23 PM..
(I just got started on these, this is only a tiny random sampling mostly some Arab and Persian alchemist I'd been researching, there are several dozen fascinating characters from the European renaissance alone)
You forgot John Dee...
John Dee 13 July 1527 – 1608 or 1609 AD (81 or 81) was a noted mathematician, astronomer, astrologer, occultist, and consultant to Queen Elizabeth I. He also devoted much of his life to the study of alchemy, divination, and Hermetic philosophy.
"I don't believe it. There she goes again! She's tidied up, and I can't find anything! All my tubes and wires and careful notes and antiquated notions..." - Thomas Dolby
Reclaiming the Blade has been released on DvD, I highly recommend it to anyone who has an interest in swords, knights, medieval history or martial arts
__________________
Check out the historically-based combat system that has gamers talking around the world: The Codex Martialis, your gateway to the elegant, lethal Martial Arts of ancient Europe and Japan. Fast-paced, cinematic combat is available for your OGL game today. Find out why all the reviewers raved over this system. Make combat exciting again!
Discuss the Codex Martialis system with other players and game designers, learn about new ideas and beta test upcoming releases at www.codexmartialis.com
__________________
Check out the historically-based combat system that has gamers talking around the world: The Codex Martialis, your gateway to the elegant, lethal Martial Arts of ancient Europe and Japan. Fast-paced, cinematic combat is available for your OGL game today. Find out why all the reviewers raved over this system. Make combat exciting again!
Discuss the Codex Martialis system with other players and game designers, learn about new ideas and beta test upcoming releases at www.codexmartialis.com
__________________
Check out the historically-based combat system that has gamers talking around the world: The Codex Martialis, your gateway to the elegant, lethal Martial Arts of ancient Europe and Japan. Fast-paced, cinematic combat is available for your OGL game today. Find out why all the reviewers raved over this system. Make combat exciting again!
Discuss the Codex Martialis system with other players and game designers, learn about new ideas and beta test upcoming releases at www.codexmartialis.com
Last edited by Galloglaich; 9th June 2009 at 08:10 PM..
__________________
Check out the historically-based combat system that has gamers talking around the world: The Codex Martialis, your gateway to the elegant, lethal Martial Arts of ancient Europe and Japan. Fast-paced, cinematic combat is available for your OGL game today. Find out why all the reviewers raved over this system. Make combat exciting again!
Discuss the Codex Martialis system with other players and game designers, learn about new ideas and beta test upcoming releases at www.codexmartialis.com
Training is specifically described in some detail, in the various stories heroes like CuCullain and Finn McCool spent time being trained, interestingly enough under the tutelage of women. The specific 'Feats' they learned to accomplish, such as running through a forest barefoot without snagging on a thorn, or standing in a pit and fending off javelins thrown by 5 men, were described in the Ulster Cycle and the Fenian Cycle.
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