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One argument I have heard many, many times from people who don't like low fantasy, is that they don't want a boring game about some peasant who has fleas and dies of the plague anonymously at age 27. They want to be a hero, someone remarkable, someone who transcended the mundane. Most of all they don't want to be anything like reality, which for some of us is like the life of Dilbert. We don't want to play Dilbert in the Dungeon.
Well, if you prefer high fantasy that is ok, but as someone who enjoys history, I wanted to point out that there are rather quite a few remarkable real people from history who had adventures seldom matched in any Fantasy Novel, DnD game, or all the WoW games ever played, and they were a long way from Dilbert. In fact, many of the people on this list were IMO greater warriors than Conan, wiser than King Arthur, and more ruthless and intrepid than Elric.
In my opinion at least. Here are just a few examples from Europe and the Middle East:
Warriors, Bandits, Pirates, Rebels, Explorers, Mercenaries, Conquerors
These are the ‘B’ players, most are not household names (at least in the US) though some are quite well known in their own parts of the world. Not kings or emperors in most cases, but people from the middle or even lower ranks of society who rose to achieve greatness. I put an estimated alignment next to each entry, for greatness in this context does not necessarily equate with virtue, so if you are looking for someone you might sympathize with or find interesting, maybe that will help. Some of these people were good, some are thoroughly evil, most are neither or both.
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Criteria: Traveled to exotic lands, lived a life of adventure, conquered great nations, triumphed against impossible odds, lived a long time despite constant danger, displayed multiple talents, demonstrated phenomenal skill as a warrior or military leader (often clearly the best in their generation), showed remarkable pluck, humor and / or creativity, broke tradition and pioneered new innovations.
Most important: regardless of where they started in life, these people transcended expectations and the limitations of their position, and went far beyond the achievements of their peers.
Artemisia of Halicarnassus (aka Artemisia I of Caria), 5th Century BC N
Greek queen, tyrant, naval commander, political advisor. A female pirate queen who fought on the wrong side of the battle of Salamis and escaped to fight another day Artemisia I of Caria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Xenophon, 431-355 BC (96 years old) LN
Greek soldier, mercenary, author, historian, tactician, philosopher, and horse whisperer. Fought his way out of deepest Persia with 10,000 Greek Mercenaries and lived to tell the tale Xenophon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Viriathus the Lusitani, 180 BC – 139 BC (59 years old) CG
Celtic warrior, guerilla leader, rebel - confounder of the Roman Empire
Josephus (aka Flavius Josephus), 37 – 100 AD (63 years old) LN
Hebrew guerilla, warrior, Roman collaborator, author, historian, math whiz Josephus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"And in the shock of the battle the men of the North seemed like a sea that cannot be moved. Firmly they stood, one close to another, forming as it were a bulwark of ice; and with great blows of their swords they hewed down the Arabs. Drawn up in a band around their chief, the people of the Austrasians [sic] carried all before them. Their tireless hands drove their swords down to the breasts of the foe."
Pelayo of Asturias, 690-737 AD (47 years old) LN
Visigoth nobleman, Spanish guerilla leader, founder of the Kingdom of Asturias Pelayo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gange-Rolf (aka Rollo of Normandy, aka Ganger Rolf, aka Hrólfr Rögnvaldsson and Göngu-Hrólfr), 860-932 AD (72 years old) N
Norse Viking, pirate, bandit, soldier, duke of Rouen, founder of Normandy Rollo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
“Egil is the great anti-hero of Icelandic literature, known for breaking his oaths, killing for trifles, and practicing sorcery. Many historians consider Egil to be one of the deadliest men that ever lived in bladed combat- several accounts tell of him slaughtering as many as 20 or more armed men single-handedly, and even dispatching a feared berserker with relative ease. In spite of this, he was considered a great healer, and his saga tells of him curing a girl who had been ill for quite some time where all other efforts had proven futile.”
Doge Enrico Dandolo, 1107-1205 AD (98 years old) N / CE
Blind Doge (ruler) of Venice, crusader, military adventurer, conqueror of Byzantium at age 90 Enrico Dandolo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Roger de Flor (Aka Roger von Blum),1266-1306 AD (40 years old) CN
German templar, pirate, Byzantine Caesar, leader of the Catalan Grand Company Roger de Flor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jeanne De Clisson CN
Female Pirate and Breton rebel, scourge of the French Navy
"Jeanne de Clisson, enraged and bewildered over her husband's execution, swore revenge on the King, and Charles de Blois in particular. She sold off the remnants of the Clisson lands to raise money, whereupon she bought three warships, and the aid of many of the lords and people of Brittany to ensure their independence.
The ships that Clisson purchased were painted all black on her command, and the sails dyed red. The 'Black Fleet' took to the waters and began hunting down and destroying the ships of King Philip VI, and were merciless with the crews. But Clisson would always leave two or three of Philip's sailors alive, so that the message would get back to the King that the “Lioness of Brittany” had struck once again. Jeanne and her fleet also assisted in keeping the English Channel free of French warships, and it is very likely that as a privateer she had a hand in keeping supplies available to the English forces for the Battle of Crécy in 1346. When King Philip VI died in 1350, it was not the end to Jeanne's revenge. She continued to wreak havoc among French shipping, and it was reported that she took particular joy in hunting down and capturing the ships of French noblemen, as long as they were aboard. She would then personally behead the aristocrats with an axe, tossing their lifeless bodies overboard." Jeanne de Clisson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
John Hunyadi, 1387-1456 AD (58 years old) LG
Vlach aristocrat, Capitan-general and regent of Hungary, War Leader and rebel Omnipelagos.com ~ article "John Hunyadi"
Skanderbeg aka Gjergj Kastrioti, 1405-1468 (63 years old) CG
Albanian nobleman, Ottoman war leader, Albanian rebel, guerilla leader, warrior Skanderbeg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Pytheas of Massalia, 380-310 BC (70 years old) N
Greek merchant, geographer, and explorer Pytheas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
‘Discovered’ British Isles (‘pretania’) and “Thule”
Villains and Monsters
Don’t think real life villains could be as scary as monsters in the fiend folio? Check out a few of these historical characters. Sawney Bean NE
Lathgertha CN
Viking Shield -maiden and pirate, possible the coolest female warrior who ever lived
"....With a measure of vitality at odds with her tender frame, roused the mettle of the faltering soldiery by a splendid exhibition of bravery. She flew round the rear of the unprepared enemy in a circling maneuver and carried the panic which had been felt by the allies into the camp of their adversaries".
Ragnar’s Saga
(I just got started on these, this is only a tiny random sampling mostly some Arab and Persian alchemist I'd been researching, there are several dozen fascinating characters from the European renaissance alone)
Jabir Ibn Hayyan, 721 – 815 AD LG
Persian alchemist, pharmacist, physician, astronomer, physicist and philosopher, known as ‘Geber’ in the West. Geber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Al Kindi, 801-873 AD LN
Arab scientist, philosopher, mathematician, physician, and musician, also known by the Latinised version of his name Alkindus to the Western world. Al-Kindi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Al-Kindi was the first of the Muslim peripatetic philosophers, and is best known for his efforts to introduce philosophy to the Arab world
Avicenna, (aka Ibn Sina aka “ibn Abd Allāh ibn Sīnā”)980-1037 AD LG
Persian polymath and the foremost physician and Islamic philosopher of his time. He was also an astronomer, chemist, geologist, Hafiz, logician, mathematician, physicist, poet, psychologist, scientist, Sheikh, soldier, statesman and Islamic theologian. Avicenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Giodorno Bruno 1558 - 1600 C? Giordano Bruno - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Italian. Either a subtle philosopher or a heretical demon worshiper, depending on who you believe. Burned at the stake for writing among other works, the infamous "De Umbris Idearum" (aka 'Shadow of Ideas') and Lo Spaccio de la Bestia Trionfante (The Expulsion of the Triumphant Beast, 1584) and De gl' Heroici Furori (On Heroic Frenzies, 1585).
__________________
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Last edited by Galloglaich; 15th October 2008 at 02:54 AM..
What a fantastic collection - I'm going to really enjoy going through this. So many ideas!!!
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
__________________ Imagination is a quality given a man to compensate him for what he is not,
and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is. Oscar Wilde
He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder. Tad Williams
__________________ I don't "tell stories" when I play D&D. I adventure. Afterward, when the gold is counted and the bodies piled high, we may tell stories about how it all went down. Or not.
Gráinne Ní Mháille (called Grace O'Malley by the English and also called "The Sea Queen Of Connaught"), 1530 – 1603 AD (73 years old) CG/CN (Depends who you talk too)
Irish Pirate, Noble, Mother, Well Educated, Spoke to Queen Elizabeth the I Grace O'Malley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gráinne Ní Mháille (called Grace O'Malley by the English and also called "The Sea Queen Of Connaught"), 1530 – 1603 AD (73 years old) CG/CN (Depends who you talk too)
Irish Pirate, Noble, Mother, Well Educated, Spoke to Queen Elizabeth the I Grace O'Malley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yeah thats a good one... I added her to my own list thanks.
G.
__________________
Check out the historically-based combat system that has gamers talking around the world: The Codex Martialis, your gateway to the elegant, lethal Martial Arts of ancient Europe and Japan. Fast-paced, cinematic combat is available for your OGL game today. Find out why all the reviewers raved over this system. Make combat exciting again!
Discuss the Codex Martialis system with other players and game designers, learn about new ideas and beta test upcoming releases at www.codexmartialis.com
History always has more fantastical stories anyway.
__________________ Pablo El Vagabundo
"Mercy!? You want MERCY? I'M CHAOTIC NEUTRAL!!!" One of my rituals is in Goodman Games's Book of Rituals.
Humpty Dumpty exploring the tomb
Humpty Dumpty found Acererak's doom
All of the clerics and all of the scrolls
Couldn't resurrect Humpty Dumpty's soul.
To offer a counterpoint, take Kurt Buseik, and his comic, "Astro City". In the prelude to one of the collections, he says that people often write him, praising his comic for how realistic it is. And then he says, basically, "realistic? It's got shapechanging aliens and a giant ice kingdom full of trolls!" And it does. But what makes people say that is that, unlike most superhero comics, the people in Astro City are aware their world has heroes in it. Mr. Fantastic is allowed to cure cancer, but people also write letters to the editor complaining that local heroes jetted off to prevent the world from exploding when there's a serial murderer on the loose in their neighborhood, and don't they care?
Or, put a different way, "the difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to be believable". The problem with overfantasy is not that it's fiction, but that it's unbelievable.
I'm sure I'll mine it for future NPC's details, though I'll probably replace the actual personages of historical importance with talking dinosaurs or elven samurai wielding glass katanae...
(lilies were made to gild, weren't they?)
__________________ "You should probably put your bandit hat on now. Personally, I- I don't have one, but I modified this tube sock." - Ash, Fantastic Mr. Fox.
To offer a counterpoint, take Kurt Buseik, and his comic, "Astro City". In the prelude to one of the collections, he says that people often write him, praising his comic for how realistic it is. And then he says, basically, "realistic? It's got shapechanging aliens and a giant ice kingdom full of trolls!" And it does. But what makes people say that is that, unlike most superhero comics, the people in Astro City are aware their world has heroes in it. Mr. Fantastic is allowed to cure cancer, but people also write letters to the editor complaining that local heroes jetted off to prevent the world from exploding when there's a serial murderer on the loose in their neighborhood, and don't they care?
Or, put a different way, "the difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to be believable". The problem with overfantasy is not that it's fiction, but that it's unbelievable.
I think what you are talking about is verisimilitude, which is not the same thing as realism. It's more a kind of internal consistency. Thats what you really want in either a story or a game.
The problem with the general inflation of fantastic elements making dinner into "all sugar, no meat" is tied to another problem, of increasingly derivitive fantastic notions which have no internal consistency.
I try to explain this with cartoons sometimes. If you are old enough you may remember three of my favorites: Johnny Quest, Bullwinkle and Buggs Bunny. Johnny Quest was the archetypal 'realistic' action / sci fi cartoon, Bullwinkle and Buggs Bunny were purely fantastic and satirical. To me both types had excellent verisimilitude. While Johnny Quest was more realistic than the other two, it regularly introduced fantastic elements, but which were logically integrated into the marginally plausible world they had created, which had it's own logical consistency and a certain satisfying verisimilitude. like Call of Cthulhu or something like that.
Buggs Bunny or Bullwinkle on the other hand are utterly fantastic. The physics, the talking animals, the very appearance of the world is just wacky. And yet it also has a certain verisimilitude. It has it's own internal logic, you know when Yosemite Sam blows up a keg of gunpowder he is only going to end up with a black face and and blown up hat, not ruptured internal organs. And we are fine with that, in fact it's what makes it fun, one of the most delightful cartoons ever made IMO. I would liken these cartoons to a game like Paranoia or Kobolds Ate my baby, which is over the top silly but tons of fun. Their sense of humor and satirical dialogue was reflective of real life people, politics, events, etc. The con artistry and hucksterism of foghorn leghorn, the lechery of pepe le pew, are themes we can recognize from life. Thats why we relate to them so much, thats why these particular cartoons stand up so well in terms of modern viewers (despite being made as far back as the 1940s) and older (adult) viewers.
__________________
Check out the historically-based combat system that has gamers talking around the world: The Codex Martialis, your gateway to the elegant, lethal Martial Arts of ancient Europe and Japan. Fast-paced, cinematic combat is available for your OGL game today. Find out why all the reviewers raved over this system. Make combat exciting again!
Discuss the Codex Martialis system with other players and game designers, learn about new ideas and beta test upcoming releases at www.codexmartialis.com
Last edited by Galloglaich; 18th October 2008 at 06:07 PM..
I think what you are talking about is verisimilitude, which is not the same thing as realism. It's more a kind of internal consistency. Thats what you really want in either a story or a game.
The problem with the general inflation of fantastic elements making dinner into "all sugar, no meat" is tied to another problem, of increasingly derivitive fantastic notions which have no internal consistency.
So you agree with me that it's more a problem of consistency.
But even for "realism", consistency is still a problem. I mean, consider a hippie stockbroker, if you even can. Hippies are real. Stockbrokers are real. What's the problem? They're not consistent with each other.
Consistency is more entertaining than realism. This is why hearing an Italian film critic rant against "8 1/2" makes no sense in the modern era. He's absolutely apoplectic! Why, the film has dream sequences! They're shot in sharp focus against indistinct backgrounds with high contrast and no shadows! There are poor people played by rich people and rich people played by poor people!
Originally these were all anathema to Italian cinema, which prided itself on its realism. Nowadays, do they even seem odd? No. That's because even if they aren't realistic, they're still entertaining.
So you agree with me that it's more a problem of consistency.
But even for "realism", consistency is still a problem. I mean, consider a hippie stockbroker, if you even can. Hippies are real. Stockbrokers are real. What's the problem? They're not consistent with each other.
Consistency is more entertaining than realism. This is why hearing an Italian film critic rant against "8 1/2" makes no sense in the modern era. He's absolutely apoplectic! Why, the film has dream sequences! They're shot in sharp focus against indistinct backgrounds with high contrast and no shadows! There are poor people played by rich people and rich people played by poor people!
Originally these were all anathema to Italian cinema, which prided itself on its realism. Nowadays, do they even seem odd? No. That's because even if they aren't realistic, they're still entertaining.
The thing is, it's often (usually?) the link to reality at some level which makes the verisimilitude possible.
For example, I think Fellinis later films are very overrated. Yes it's good to break stifiling norms when they are strangling creativity, but it gets a lot harder to make something which actually works on an organic level. Fellini was ground breaking, innovative, his early films were brilliant, but who wants to watch "Satyricon" today? When it comes to Italian directors from the 60's, I personally like Sergeo Leone or Dario Argento a lot better.
Give me a Clint Eastwood Spaghetti Western or a viscerally realistic Argento horror fantasy over some abstract art film done to make a point any day of the week.
More to the point, if you want something truly unwatchable, think of all the hippy films which were trying to imitate the innovative camera tricks of Fellini, Godard et all that came throughout the late 60's and 70's. Ever try to watch one of those psychadelic cinematic creations recently? To me that is analagous to where some fantasy and RPG 'culture' has gone to.
The films with the most lasting impact IMO are the ones that were grounded in reality in at least some significant ways.
G.
__________________
Check out the historically-based combat system that has gamers talking around the world: The Codex Martialis, your gateway to the elegant, lethal Martial Arts of ancient Europe and Japan. Fast-paced, cinematic combat is available for your OGL game today. Find out why all the reviewers raved over this system. Make combat exciting again!
Discuss the Codex Martialis system with other players and game designers, learn about new ideas and beta test upcoming releases at www.codexmartialis.com
Last edited by Galloglaich; 1st October 2008 at 08:22 PM..
Give me a Clint Eastwood Spaghetti Western or a viscerally realistic Argento horror fantasy over some abstract art film done to make a point any day of the week.
I like Leone and Argento better than Fellini too, but tell me Suspira doesn't qualify as an "abstract art film", albeit one with stabbing and witches. The last time my wife and I watched it we decided it was the most frightening film about interior design ever made.
Quote:
The films with the most lasting impact IMO are the ones that were grounded in reality in at least some significant ways.
The comparison between non-narrative films and certain, newer RPG's is a pretty weak one. You're comparing films with an unorthodox structure (ie, they don't really tell a traditional linear, literal story), to RPG's that [b]do[/i] have an orthodox structure (ie, 4e is still about dungeon-delving, killing things, and taking their stuff) but more outlandish trappings (Dragoborn, Tieflings, laser-equipped electric sharks --oops, sorry, that's a reference to another thread I'm posting in).
__________________ "You should probably put your bandit hat on now. Personally, I- I don't have one, but I modified this tube sock." - Ash, Fantastic Mr. Fox.
I like Leone and Argento better than Fellini too, but tell me Suspira doesn't qualify as an "abstract art film", albeit one with stabbing and witches. The last time my wife and I watched it we decided it was the most frightening film about interior design ever made.
But what made Suspiria famous fairly or unfairly, was not the interior design, but the realistic (if bizarre) extreme violence particularly of the first murder. This is what I mean by how the anchor in the real world can allow the fantasy to take flight more effectively.
Quote:
The comparison between non-narrative films and certain, newer RPG's is a pretty weak one. You're comparing films with an unorthodox structure (ie, they don't really tell a traditional linear, literal story), to RPG's that do have an orthodox structure (ie, 4e is still about dungeon-delving, killing things, and taking their stuff) but more outlandish trappings (Dragoborn, Tieflings, laser-equipped electric sharks --oops, sorry, that's a reference to another thread I'm posting in).
I'm not talking about the structure so much as the stylistic techniques, and I'm not talking about the original art films, which you could argue were worth watching and still are, to their many hippy imitators of the 70s etc. which most people would like to forget about.
Similarly to a lot of the really derivitive formulaic slasher movies of the 80's, or to my original analogy, the later Hana Barbara cartoons, like say, Birdman and the Galaxy Trio, which I've never seen that I can remember, but from reading the wiki on it I suspect a laser shark or lightning scorpion would fit well.
G.
__________________
Check out the historically-based combat system that has gamers talking around the world: The Codex Martialis, your gateway to the elegant, lethal Martial Arts of ancient Europe and Japan. Fast-paced, cinematic combat is available for your OGL game today. Find out why all the reviewers raved over this system. Make combat exciting again!
Discuss the Codex Martialis system with other players and game designers, learn about new ideas and beta test upcoming releases at www.codexmartialis.com
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