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Yep, P1 is solid - just finished my first read-through this weekend. (My group kicks off our H2 arc with their newly promoted 4th level characters tonight, so it'll be a while before we get to the P1...)
I was concerned a big dungeon crawl wouldn't feel 'Paragon' enough, but that's not the case at all... there's wilderness travel, big monsters, leading the defense of a town from attackers, and interplanar travel. All in all I think it does a good job of creating a bridge into Paragon style play. And it would be super easy to modify/build the hooks in such a way that the characters are recruited specifically because of their renown at reaching 11th level.
Considering the diverse audiences and ages for whom H1-H3 and P1 have needed to be designed, they've been remarkably good.
I'm curious as to why you'd think that fighting the main villain multiple times is a bad thing. I can understand why you'd think fighting him twice in a row is a bad thing, but I can't see why the first is bad.
Well, does he have a different bag of tricks each time? If not, I could see things getting monotonous.
OK, I just finished reading through my copy of P1.
Overall I am pretty impressed. The location it is set in brings with it lots of possibilities. I could easily see using the area as the basis of a longer game with the players gradually becoming aware through the Heroic tier of the growing threat of Skalmad.
If I was to have any criticisms it would be these:
1. For an early level Paragon adventure the scale is probably too small. At this point the players are well known in their lands, the town is too small scale. By this level I would expect players either to be running their own Barony or to be significant powers within a larger Kingdom and not running errands for a distant Baron or small town Mayor.
2. I was impressed with the first two sections of the module, the dungeon of Skalmad and the attack on the town. Both are very strong. The third portion isn't. You go to the Feywild and find a huge crumbling Formorian castle. The setting is excellent, they even provide you with a big overview map of the castle. They then proceed to use almost none of it.
The actual fight with Vard happens in some pokey little cave underground. The cave section is all of two areas long, there is no overview map and the mini maps of the two areas dont appear to be connected. Very annoying. For the last climactic encounter I would have also expected to see a poster map for the confrontation.
3. I dont mind the process of fighting Skalmad/Vard, I think it nicely sets him up as a serious villain. What I do wish had been done was to make them mechanically really different which didnt seem to be the case.
OK, I just finished reading through my copy of P1.
Overall I am pretty impressed. The location it is set in brings with it lots of possibilities. I could easily see using the area as the basis of a longer game with the players gradually becoming aware through the Heroic tier of the growing threat of Skalmad.
If I was to have any criticisms it would be these:
1. For an early level Paragon adventure the scale is probably too small. At this point the players are well known in their lands, the town is too small scale. By this level I would expect players either to be running their own Barony or to be significant powers within a larger Kingdom and not running errands for a distant Baron or small town Mayor.
I think this will be a problem throughout the series... the modules are stand-alones, with limited hooks between them, and they're meant to plug into any campaign. So the bar is pretty low for the hooks, they're super generic. Any DM customizing the storyline for his campaign will be able to mod the hooks easily.
In my current campaign, the group just started Thunderspire H2. In between H1 and H2, a few months passed, and the character stories advanced a little. One of the characters (the big tough fighter in the group, Flint) was credited with most of the defense of Winterhaven by Lord Patrick (Lord Padraig from the module) and through the course of events, Flint has been granted the title of Lord Flint (a court lord) and knight itinerant in the service of Lord Markelhay of Fallcrest. (Its worked out well because this particular player is never this type of 'center of attention' and the group is having some fun playing off it).
In between H2 and H3, I have an in interlude planned at the Fallcrest keep where various local barons will be there for a tournament and festival, including Baron Harkenwold and the Baron of Therund (introduced tangentially in the background for P1). Flint will get a chance to learn of Etheran, the champion of Therund, and cross friendly swords with him in the tournament.
When we finally get to P1, the hook will be that the Baron of Therund reaches out directly to Lord Markelhay for the assistance of his renowned knight, Lord Flint; the champion of the Baron, Etheran, has fallen, and only the defenders of Nentir are close enough to save Moonstair from the rising threat. (Our wizard is in close with the High Septarch of Fallcrest, so perhaps there will be some magical communication rather than slow messengers, adding to the urgency).
To me, that is now sufficiently "Paragon"; the characters have reached a degree of renown that they are being asked by neighboring realms to intervene in situations that have grown beyond the realms' ability to handle. I'll need to make it clear they've made their local area somewhat safe and secure too.
FYI, my hook for H3 will also come out of that tournament festival alluded to above. A recurring villain in the game will stage a "jail break" during the tournament, releasing Gharash and his bandits from the Fallcrest prisons. (Gharash is one of the generic hooks). These violent criminals exact some "revenge" on the townsfolk, and some of it will be personal to the player characters; when they learn of Gharash's escape, they'll take it on themselve to track his vile gang north into Winterbole Forest, and ultimately into the Pyramid of Shadows. It'll tie in both a recurring villain and a personal stake in the events.
My point is, the provided hooks are usually fairly lame, but with minimal effort they can be tweaked into something serviceable for an ongoing game.
What I'd change from that encounter would be to move it through a teleport portal (teleportal?) down into the middle of Brindol. A fight that awesome is meant to be fought in front of a crowd.
-Stolen!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormtower
Off-topic here, but: I fixed the issue with the final encounter (not Azarr Kul & co., but the battle afterward) by having Bahamut grant a divine battle blessing that essentially restored the PCs to fully rested status in preparation for the fight. That negated the grudge monster factor and made it a great, memorable battle.
"In my current campaign, the group just started Thunderspire H2. In between H1 and H2, a few months passed, and the character stories advanced a little."
I've had no trouble linking H1 and H2 together through a "Follow the slave" plot thread. The PCs see that villagers are rounded up and enslaved, some were sold to that nut, Karazel, others to the Duergar and the Gnolls for labor and sacrifices. Now two of the PCs have read a page from an old demonic book and a buzzing in their head points them to either the Pyramid of Shadows or madness!
I haven't figured out the thread to P1 yet but I have a few months to worry about it.
The actual fight with Vard happens in some pokey little cave underground. The cave section is all of two areas long, there is no overview map and the mini maps of the two areas dont appear to be connected. Very annoying. For the last climactic encounter I would have also expected to see a poster map for the confrontation.
Well, yeah, they forgot to include the overview map for the underground area. Here's the link to the map from the WotC gallery: Caverns Below Stone Cauldron
I just finished reading it and overall I like it even though I'm not a fan of extended dungeon crawls. The interlude back in Moonstair is clearly my favorite part.
While making my encounter/treasure analysis I noticed that there is one item I cannot find anywhere: In encounter W7 you find a symbol of despair. Does anyone know where I can find a description for this?
The magic item distribution is almost as in the DMG guidelines: instead of one L16 and one L15 item you get one of each L11 to L14; i.e. a net loss of 10k gp.
The second part is lacking regarding the gp amount though. In total the adventurers will find about 16 k gp less than they should.
The only thing to make up for that would be if they manage to get hold of one or both of the artifacts:Well, they probably won't be able to keep Sunwrath but at least they can use it until they return it to its rightful owners. It's possible to keep the Eye of Moran, though, if they succeeded in the skill challenge to find out the Stone Cauldron's history.
I like Red Hand of Doom, but the final act is fatally flawed. (And yes, I have run it). After a bunch of really thematic encounters, the final fortress is "let's fight one massive encounter after another" which didn't quite work for me.
I like RHOD very much (and am actually planning to use it in my 4E campaign - yes, I have Draconomicon), but yes, the ending needs to go away.
The BBEG is cool, but the adventure should really have used it/him as the ultimate war commander; as someone who actually gives a darn about his army. Note to authors: don't make it so your main plot turns out to be an insignificant diversion, and if you would have stayed at home not showing your hand, you would have been much better off in the end.
Since there's been some thread necromancy conducted here, I was wondering if anyone has played through this yet (not just read). I'm getting ready to start this one, and am looking forward to running it. At the risk of getting a little OT, has anyone run P2 as well? I haven't even bought that one and was trying to see if it was worth it.
I think ambushes are annoying and usually unfair to the players.
They're annoying (especially in 3e where pre-buffing is critical) because the PCs don't have time to prepare for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Randall
I think ambushes are an adequate storytelling tactic because they convey to the players that hey, the bad guys see you as a serious threat. But there are so many other ways that could be conveyed that don't involve ambushes. Such as:
* bad guy attempts to bribe PCs to stop attacking him or to go elsewhere
* bad guy tries to get the PCs to work for him
* bad guy uses some other person/group as a cat's paw to fight against the PCs
* bad guy packs up his things and abandons his lair, leaving a taunting note for the PCs
* bad guy is so scared that he surrenders rather than face death (not every bad guy has to fight to the death or be an insane cultist)
I think an ambush is the best way of conveying the fact the BBEG see you as a serious threat.
Those other methods are fine too, but not if overdone. Then the players get the feeling the BBEG (and by extension the DM) isn't really out to kill them.
Now, if you're playing 4E, you're in luck. Ambushes are much less unfair now than in the previous edition.
Not only do PCs not need to pre-buff, they will manage even if without their stuff, and hopefully the ambush means they'll be fresh out of an extended rest. Also, there's none of the scry-teleport silliness, meaning that the ambush doesn't always come straight out of the blue like in 3E, and when it does, the party can usually recognize how they should have protected themselves better.
All good. And all factors encouraging you as the DM to really take off the gloves! Assuming the PCs get ambushed because they made a blunder earlier, they will 1) survive even a nasty ambush 2) thank you for it, because they see they deserved the hardship 3) lead to a better adventure 'cause now it's personal!
1) I'm really getting ticked that our RHoD campaign (in which I am a player for a change) is on hiatus. I'm missing out on the best adventure of all time? Grr.
2) Sounds like I need to read this one. Who wrote it?
I think an ambush is the best way of conveying the fact the BBEG see you as a serious threat.
Those other methods are fine too, but not if overdone. Then the players get the feeling the BBEG (and by extension the DM) isn't really out to kill them.
Now, if you're playing 4E, you're in luck. Ambushes are much less unfair now than in the previous edition.
Not only do PCs not need to pre-buff, they will manage even if without their stuff, and hopefully the ambush means they'll be fresh out of an extended rest. Also, there's none of the scry-teleport silliness, meaning that the ambush doesn't always come straight out of the blue like in 3E, and when it does, the party can usually recognize how they should have protected themselves better.
All good. And all factors encouraging you as the DM to really take off the gloves! Assuming the PCs get ambushed because they made a blunder earlier, they will 1) survive even a nasty ambush 2) thank you for it, because they see they deserved the hardship 3) lead to a better adventure 'cause now it's personal!
Ambushes can be easily overdone as well. Especially since they always fail.
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P1 just isnt doing it for me - saying that I've not read the whole thing. H2 sucked me in and I will be starting it next month some time.
Maybe I need to give it a proper read through.
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Our group is playing through it(I'm not Dming for once) and it just seems to be monotonous monster hacking over and over again. Some of the encounters are well done and most use terrain very well, but that seems to be all their is. There was some RP at the start of the module when we tried to convince the champion in MoonStair to join us, but there has been very little.
I think we're about half-way through the module so maybe it will improve (We "killed" skullmead and his jewel eye flared and he disappeared) and have fought 10 or so encounters so far, but its getting old fast. Their have been no exciting traps, no puzzles and no RP, nothing but combat scenarios so far, it's very very lame.
But I disliked H1 after reading it too, and have never run it either so maybe the WoTC modules just don't suit me.
But I disliked H1 after reading it too, and have never run it either so maybe the WoTC modules just don't suit me.
I think a lot of people didn't like KotS too much, but still like KotT - And if you just killed Skalmad, things are about to become more interesting. Although a lot depends on the DM, obviously.
Cheers
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Our group is playing through it(I'm not Dming for once) and it just seems to be monotonous monster hacking over and over again. Some of the encounters are well done and most use terrain very well, but that seems to be all their is. There was some RP at the start of the module when we tried to convince the champion in MoonStair to join us, but there has been very little.
I think we're about half-way through the module so maybe it will improve (We "killed" skullmead and his jewel eye flared and he disappeared) and have fought 10 or so encounters so far, but its getting old fast. Their have been no exciting traps, no puzzles and no RP, nothing but combat scenarios so far, it's very very lame.
Is your DM one that typically like RP or is he a tactical combat kind of person? That will weigh heavily in how well the adventure plays out.
__________________ Game on, gang! Ptolus #16 (with customized, personalized sig from Monte. Awesomesauce.), Rappan Athuk Reloaded #37 (Another Awesomesauce, the Necromancer way.)
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Books currently in play: Dungeon & Dragon Magazine (*Scales of War AP*), WOTC 4e Core and Supplemental books
Current Campaign: Scales of War - Lost Mines of Karak -- Kodirgo, Minotaur Barbarian 6; Vondal, Dwarf Cleric 6; Karithul, Gnome Bard 6; Marshaun, Elf Druid 6
Is your DM one that typically like RP or is he a tactical combat kind of person? That will weigh heavily in how well the adventure plays out.
He's generally fairly RP based, but usually runs his own creations when he does run. I think he may feel constrained by the module, to do exactly what it says.
That said he does fairly well from a tactical point of veiw and encourages stunts, so combat isn't boring, but fighting repeatedly gets old fast.
Last edited by C_M2008; 14th April 2009 at 10:49 PM..
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