General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
__________________ "This game requires no gameboard because the action takes place in your imagination..." - Cover of Dungeons & Dragons Basic Rules Set 1.
__________________ "There are few problems a well-placed fireball cannot solve. Now, tell us more about this... orphanage?" - Balfour Grimstaff
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From my own experience. I have two players who have only known 3.5x prior to joining our group. Through my rule changes (the running joke the players jibe me with is what rules have changed this week? What rule set are we using?) and system 'try outs', they have been exposed to older systems through BFRPG and C&C. Recently I printed out probably the finest article on 'Old School' gaming their is, "A quick primer for old school gaming'" By Matthew J. Finch, Untitled. They saw the rule set and the primer and wanted to borrow it. I let them. Now one of them wants to run it. The other is starting to run his own 4e campaign, but he is leaning towards running a OD&D campaign instead. I thought this was an awesome change of events.
I currently run a 4e campaign for the group and am loathe to change the rule sets or add rules just to get back to a stable gaming for a long while. 4e is probably the first edition I have not felt like tweaking too much.
__________________ "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see
your good works and give glory to your Father
who is in heaven." - Matthew 5:16 - One of Gary Gygax's favorite bible verses.
You and me both, S'mon. I'd like to thank 4e for helping me find OD&D and not because 4e had these supposed "back to it's roots" qualities.
I had actually considered whether a disdain of 4E may have brought some players to 1E, but then figured those folks would have already been playing either an old edition or 3.5, and not been looking for a change. Just goes to show ya, there's no truly valid generalization when it comes to gamers~
Regardless of the disparate paths to follow back to 1E, its reassuring that there is still so much material available on the secondary market, .pdfs, and even free stuff like OSRIC. It'd suck if the core 1E rules were as hard to get as, say, a fresh copy of Hawk the Slayer...
__________________ "There are few problems a well-placed fireball cannot solve. Now, tell us more about this... orphanage?" - Balfour Grimstaff
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I'm not here on enough of a regular basis to gauge what's happening specifically on ENW, but since OSRIC there's been a slowly increasing tide of new blogs, new sites, and more modules appearing in the OOP websites like Dragonsfoot and Knights & Knaves. I don't think it's been linked to 4e - I don't recall a large blip - maybe a small one - around the time 4e came out.
My guess is that the tip of that iceberg is appearing at ENW more often, just because the iceberg's getting bigger.
However, I have seen several people come to the OOP message boards specifically because they saw OSRIC or Swords & Wizardry mentioned here as a way to learn 1e or 0e, respectively. I don't know how much that has fed back to here, though.
Well, to state seriously what I was stating jokingly, I don't think 4e has much "old school" feel at all. If anything is repsonsible for a supposed spike in old school interest related to 4e, I would suspect it is that people dissatisfied with the degree to which 4e divorces itself from legacy D&D elements that 4e scuttles decide to consider games they already have to recapture that feel.
__________________ "This game requires no gameboard because the action takes place in your imagination..." - Cover of Dungeons & Dragons Basic Rules Set 1.
Is it my imagination, or has there been an increase of interest (ie posts) in 1E the last few weeks?
I wonder if the inherent old-school feel of 4E hasn't led more than a few gamers to explore the style's roots a bit more? Or if "edition wars" fatigue is fostering a fondness for the less-complicated gaming environment of yore?
Whatever it is, glad to see 1E AD&D is not going to fade away any time soon...
Are you seriously trying to say that 1E and 4E are similar enough that 4E has revived 1E? Considering the vast differences the two systems have, I would say that it's more like people are fed up with the new edition, tons of splatbooks, lather, rinse, and repeat roller coaster than any similarities between the two editions. They aren't even the same game. I'm no expert on 1e, but I'm sure it didn't have healing surges, videogamey powers for all characters, tieflings, dragonborn, action points, defenses instead of saves, etc. etc. All they really have in common is the names of some classes, races, and a few spells, AC, hit ponts, and medieval weapondry and armor. Maybe you're refering to the emphasis on rudimentary dungeon crawls for both editions. Other than that, I don't see where you are coming from.
Well, to state seriously what I was stating jokingly, I don't think 4e has much "old school" feel at all. If anything is repsonsible for a supposed spike in old school interest related to 4e, I would suspect it is that people dissatisfied with the degree to which 4e divorces itself from legacy D&D elements that 4e scuttles decide to consider games they already have to recapture that feel.
Well, I'll be a contradicting data point, I'm afraid.
I'm not interested in 1e again because 4e isn't scratching my gaming itch, or because it's somehow breaking the legacy. I'm still running a 4e game and am still enthusiastic about it.
I laid out my reasons up above. One of them is that running 4e reminds me of running older editions. I know a lot of people don't believe this, but there you have it.
Well, I can't speak for everyone, but the thing that got me most interested in the earlier editions of D&D was Castles & Crusades.
I picked up the starter rules for C&C back on Free RPG Day. That little yellow booklet reminded me that the game doesn't have to be as complicated as it is now (yes, even under the 4E rules.) I remembered that once upon a time, all we needed to play were two books, some dice, and a few sheets of graph paper.
The funny thing is, I never really got into C&C. I played the demo game at my FLGS once, and I showed it to my group, but it never really took off. As it turned out, we didn't want to learn a new game system; we wanted to play the old BECMI ones instead. We already had the books, we were already familiar with the rules, all that.
Similar experience but different: I looked at C&C and thought it was neat but too backwards. However, it led me to find Castle Zagyg, which in turn has gotten me on a Greyhawk kick. I also nabbed some old modules (Temple of Elemental Evil, Tegel Manor, etc.) and plan to do it all up for 4E because I like the ruleset and I'm more than happy to just wing the conversion to a degree.
Currently starting with 4e Rappan Athuk, but I'll definitely have opportunity to start using the Greyhawk stuff soon.
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Are you seriously trying to say that 1E and 4E are similar enough that 4E has revived 1E? Considering the vast differences the two systems have, I would say that it's more like people are fed up with the new edition, tons of splatbooks, lather, rinse, and repeat roller coaster than any similarities between the two editions.
If he didn't, I'll say it. I posted a while back a list of all the elements of 4E that do seem to hearken back to prior editions, from the "short rest between combats" to the staying power of monsters, to the XP awards, etc. etc. There are a lot of elements that seem to imply "this worked better than what we have now" sort of changes. This really isn't the thread for in-depth discussion of it, though, as it's more about 1E.
What 1E resurgence has done however, even if a small resurgence, is make people mindful of the elements that make a game popular to average Joes and Janes, people who don't want to think about the mechanics very much, but who just want to either kill things and take stuff, or roleplay a character, or socialize with friends, or some combo of the three.
Games like Labyrinth Lord or Castles and Crusades do remind me that there was a reason (besides a Satanism scare) that people turned out in tens and twenties at game tables throughout the Seventies and early Eighties, and looking back to the old while thinking about the new is a good way to remind us just what was popular about those games to those people who weren't smitten with die-hard gaming, but just those who wanted a fun experience at the table.
__________________ "Conversely, I'm amazed at the number of people queueing up to tell people that don't like 4e that they are wrong. Why can't people just agree to disagree, and get on with actually playing the game?" --Delericho
If there's one dragon, it's a solo monster.
If there's five dragons, they're standard monsters.
If there's a dozen dragons, either most of them are minions or your DM is tired of the campaign.
--Lizard
Well, I'll be a contradicting data point, I'm afraid.
I'm not interested in 1e again because 4e isn't scratching my gaming itch, or because it's somehow breaking the legacy. I'm still running a 4e game and am still enthusiastic about it.
If you are playing 4e and not some older edition, I'm not sure you are a "data point" for the purposes for my conjecture.
Still, it baffles me, for reasons laid out by Shazman.
__________________ "This game requires no gameboard because the action takes place in your imagination..." - Cover of Dungeons & Dragons Basic Rules Set 1.
If he didn't, I'll say it. I posted a while back a list of all the elements of 4E that do seem to hearken back to prior editions, from the "short rest between combats" to the staying power of monsters, to the XP awards, etc. etc. There are a lot of elements that seem to imply "this worked better than what we have now" sort of changes. This really isn't the thread for in-depth discussion of it, though, as it's more about 1E.
What 1E resurgence has done however, even if a small resurgence, is make people mindful of the elements that make a game popular to average Joes and Janes, people who don't want to think about the mechanics very much, but who just want to either kill things and take stuff, or roleplay a character, or socialize with friends, or some combo of the three.
Games like Labyrinth Lord or Castles and Crusades do remind me that there was a reason (besides a Satanism scare) that people turned out in tens and twenties at game tables throughout the Seventies and early Eighties, and looking back to the old while thinking about the new is a good way to remind us just what was popular about those games to those people who weren't smitten with die-hard gaming, but just those who wanted a fun experience at the table.
So there were 30+ hit point kobolds at 1st level that took a steady beating for 5+ rounds to kill, and you could get back spells and hit points by resting for 5 minutes between fights in 1E? That really doesn't match up with what I know and have heard of about 1E.
So there were 30+ hit point kobolds at 1st level that took a steady beating for 5+ rounds to kill, and you could get back spells and hit points by resting for 5 minutes between fights in 1E? That really doesn't match up with what I know and have heard of about 1E.
I think you might have missed the point. He was suggesting that people are interested in 1E again because it reminded us that it was supposed to be about having fun, not because it is similar to (or a replacement for) 4th edition.
Well, to state seriously what I was stating jokingly, I don't think 4e has much "old school" feel at all. If anything is repsonsible for a supposed spike in old school interest related to 4e, I would suspect it is that people dissatisfied with the degree to which 4e divorces itself from legacy D&D elements that 4e scuttles decide to consider games they already have to recapture that feel.
I think it's great that a pro-1E thread can turn into an anti-4E thread so quickly.
Heck, we even got a "videogamey powers" reference a few posts ago.
__________________ Iain Fyffe
Original member of the Rouseketeers!
I have played 4E. And just like all other editions of D&D, it is awesome!
no one quotes me in sigs - Crothian
For some reason, this doesn't fill me with rage. I must be interwebbing wrong. - Cadfan
If you are playing 4e and not some older edition, I'm not sure you are a "data point" for the purposes for my conjecture.
Still, it baffles me, for reasons laid out by Shazman.
No, I'm playing both, in separate campaigns. Or will be playing both when my 1e games starts on 11/16. The 4e game is 1/week for 3-4 hours; the 1e game is 1/month for 6-8 hours.
When folks talk about how 4e in no way resembles 1e or RC, I think they're missing the forest for the trees. They're getting caught up on powers and minions, and missing the free-form anything-goes roleplaying and the simplicity of putting together adventures.
When folks talk about how 4e in no way resembles 1e or RC, I think they're missing the forest for the trees. They're getting caught up on powers and minions, and missing the free-form anything-goes roleplaying and the simplicity of putting together adventures.
Agreed.
I know that I am going through all my old O/B/X/A D&D materials (as well as C&C) and having a blast reading through it for inspiration and working it into 4E. I cannot say I ever felt that way in the least with 3E, where I would come here to ENWORLD and hope to god someone had done all the work for me and posted it in the conversion library.
In addition I've found myself pulling ideas/materials from other FRPGs- something again I'd never wanted , nor ever bothered, to do with 3E.
:shrug:
__________________ Founding Father of O.A.F! - Old school Admirers of Fourth edition
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"I feel books like "A Princess of Mars", "The Swords of Lankhmar" and "The Black Company" are far more important to your gaming experience than whether you choose between OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, or D&D4E." - The Ravyn
I think people sometimes get too fixated about what's "official" to see what they could do with the whole- "David "Zeb" Cook
So there were 30+ hit point kobolds at 1st level that took a steady beating for 5+ rounds to kill, and you could get back spells and hit points by resting for 5 minutes between fights in 1E? That really doesn't match up with what I know and have heard of about 1E.
Can I possibly suggest that an experienced former 1e DM or Player may look at later editions and see important similarities despite differences? So there might be deep, fundamental differences in mechanics, but other elements of game play, mood, or even mechanics may still beg positive comparison?
It is possible to say both that 4e has similarities and vast differences and not be inconsistent.
Can I possibly suggest that an experienced former 1e DM or Player may look at later editions and see important similarities despite differences? So there might be deep, fundamental differences in mechanics, but other elements of game play, mood, or even mechanics may still beg positive comparison?
It is possible to say both that 4e has similarities and vast differences and not be inconsistent.
I think the 4e mood and gameplay are similar to OD&D and AD&D. And that's why there is a sudden resurgence in the those older editions. Another reason is that 4e has cast out almost all of the game sacred cows and started over. 4e, like OD&D, is a beginning. Some do not like the fact that 4e changed a lot of things and are going back to D&D's beginnings to find what they like.
Also, once again, we as players are faced with starting over with a new (an unfamiliar) system and game world. "The Realm of mankind is narrow and constricted" resonates from the Keep on the Borderlands into the "points of light" mood of 4e.
Of course, this trend of going back to older editions isn't new. Remember when "Rules-lite" topics were common? Often, people suggested going to older editions or C&C--which is based on an older edition design and feel.
__________________ "Farewell, Friend. I was a thousand times more evil than thou!"
--Stormbringer
I think that there are multiple reasons for a resurgence to older pre-2E games. 4E cleaned up a lot of 3.X complexity but added additional complexity elsewhere while at the same time, slaughtering some sacred cows. Some people found the changes unacceptable and began looking for other systems. Some people were happy with 3.X and didn't see a need for a whole new edition. Then there are those who like thier sacred cows but want them served up with a healthy dose of simplicity.
I remember gaming from back in the Basic/1E days. Being able to get out a couple of inexpensive books, some paper,and dice and just sit around the living room in a bean bag chair and start gaming was a great experience thats become more difficult to do with later rule sets. You can play 3E or 4E without minis, in theory but a lot of the finer points of certain abilities get either too downplayed or receive a power up from a lack of exact positioning.
Older systems that are very inexpensive (or free) with simple rules that don't require a board or minis are making a comeback. Some groups still prefer the more complex systems and will continue to use them. It will be interesting to see how much interest these older and simpler games generate in the coming months with the economic situation being what it is.
My renewed interest in older editions started a couple years ago when I tried to run Necropolis in third edition. Party vs. one big monster went well enough, but party vs. group was just two much work for me. There were two summon-happy spellcasters in the party, so it was kind of a worse case scenario.
I picked of fourth edition, and although I appreciate things about it such as the streamlined combat* and less need for rules-mastery, Other things about it leave it unappealing to me to run. I must say reading 4e did inspire me to go out and buy the collected Dying Earth novels. All this leads me to believe that exposure to fourth edition may well cause folks to think "Hey, I'd like some faster, simpler gameplay in a with familiar rules in more retro setting."
*Why, oh, why did they choose to make HPs so high in 4e (particularly for monsters), thereby eliminating a big chunk of the benefit of the streamlined combat?
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