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I hate "roll to see things". Why don't we also roll to see if I can walk in a straight line?
Here's why we "roll to see things":
Please watch this video and try to count the total number of times that the people wearing white pass the basketball. (Do not count the passes made by the people wearing black.)
Have there been studies about this that test what perception is like during periods of danger such as a hallway being walked down by people who are "frosty" and in watch mode, expecting that perhaps a fight or flight moment could occur at any moment?
I would think that would have some bearing vs people in thier normal, not in danger lives.
I found a paper by Bruce Siddle on the Effects of Combat Stress. It emphasizes tunnel vision and the loss of near vision and depth perception -- as well as the loss of fine/complex motor control and higher cognitive function.
Swinging a sword at the guy in front of you is pretty straightforward under stress. Aiming a gun is much harder. Pulling out the right spell components in the right order while reciting the right words? Probably very, very hard.
Interestingly enough, upon seeing the movie again, I realized that when it appeared I almost lost the count... so, in some subconscious way my brain had somehow detected it...
ExploderWizard asked: I found a paper by Bruce Siddle on the Effects of Combat Stress. It emphasizes tunnel vision and the loss of near vision and depth perception -- as well as the loss of fine/complex motor control and higher cognitive function.
Swinging a sword at the guy in front of you is pretty straightforward under stress. Aiming a gun is much harder. Pulling out the right spell components in the right order while reciting the right words? Probably very, very hard.
Cool article. I will have to read it in depth when there is more time.
actually, my read of the article confirms what I suspected, and why you don't need to roll for seeing a beholder.
taking the article as fact, here's the summary:
IF the brain is directed to perform a task (like counting passes) , the brain will miss obvious things (like a gorilla), because it is hyper-focussed and is filtering out any input that isn't the target.
IF the brain is operating under normal circumstances, the brain will easily spot the gorilla. Thereby defeating the OP's argument.
Exploring a dungeon falls into the normal circumstance. The brain is not looking for anything hyper-specific, and thus generally sees obvious threats.
A hallmark of bad GMing is having the party enter the room, rattle off descriptions of all the furniture in the room, start counting treasure, and halfway through, tell them the dragon standing in the back breathes fire on them.
Therefore, unless the gorilla (or dragon) is hiding, it is most likely the first thing the party will notice. The party will know the types of furniture in the room (bed in the corner). The party may see a pile of treasure, but won't identify anything specific (just treasure pile on the side).
The video is a playing on a trick of the brain, by getting the brain into a special mode. Exploring a dungeon is NOT going to induce that effect.
If something's hiding, it should get a Hide roll (opposed if applicable). Being in shadow, partly obscured, not moving, it'll be harder to see. Especially if it's trying to not be seen.
What the brain also sucks at is remembering details, especially if the observer hasn't been practicing observation skills (police officers work hard at this skill). Oddly enough, trying hard to remember details will probably put the brain into the special mode, and the observer could miss the gorilla.
So, to sum up, I disagree with the OP. His article reference proves my point.
Exploring a dungeon falls into the normal circumstance. The brain is not looking for anything hyper-specific, and thus generally sees obvious threats.
I think it's accurate to say that you will find what you're looking for, and you will not see things you're not looking for -- even if they're really, really "obvious".
For instance, if you're creeping down an underground corridor, yes, you will tend to spot a monster that jumps out at you. On the other hand, if you're, say, jumping from platform to platform, avoiding a diabolical trap, or fighting a roper that has grabbed your companion, you might completely miss the goblin archers arraying themselves on the balconies above you. In fact, you might miss the ogre coming in the door.
I saw the gorilla, but thought it was there to distract me, like el-remmen. Interesting to note though. I've never had a problem with checks to see things. The random roll is supposed to simulate (poorly, but good enough for a game like D&D) factors such as relative darkness, whether you are looking in the right direction at the time, how distracted you are, etc. There are myriad reasons for why you might fail to notice a beholder sneaking up on you. It's not because the beholder is right in front of your face and you are stupid, but rather because you were doing something that precluded you from noticing. Whereas a roll of '20' might indicate you are looking in the right direction and are completely focused, a roll of '1' might indicate you are daydreaming at the moment, or turning your head to discuss something with another party member. The basic idea is very reasonable. The only problem is whether the system is an accurate simulation of such things. Making an argument against the system's accuracy is much easier than making an argument against the underlying rationality of a roll to see something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janx
Exploring a dungeon falls into the normal circumstance. The brain is not looking for anything hyper-specific, and thus generally sees obvious threats.
You might have a point if adventurers had 360 degree vision, but they don't. The case can still be made that a poor roll indicates the character wasn't looking in the right direction at the time. I know there isn't facing in D&D any longer, but that is only a generalization for combat rounds, and it isn't a very accurate one at that. But it sure makes gameplay go a hell of a lot quicker.
I'd rule that as long as the monster is trying to remain hidden, then the PCs have to make a Perception roll of some sort. If it's just chilling in the middle of the room though, unless the PCs have a negative modifier to their Perception skills I wouldn't require a roll.
I think it's accurate to say that you will find what you're looking for, and you will not see things you're not looking for -- even if they're really, really "obvious".
For instance, if you're creeping down an underground corridor, yes, you will tend to spot a monster that jumps out at you. On the other hand, if you're, say, jumping from platform to platform, avoiding a diabolical trap, or fighting a roper that has grabbed your companion, you might completely miss the goblin archers arraying themselves on the balconies above you. In fact, you might miss the ogre coming in the door.
I don't think it's quite that distractable (play some FPS games for awhile).
Generally, if it moves, I'll probably see it. Especially if I'm expecting enemy attack. I play on a 1080i HD widescreen. It's almost as good as really being there.
Cases I don't see things:
finding a spice from the spice cabinet. I've gone through that entire thing, and couldn't find stuff. Wife can walk up and show me exactly where it is. This is a situation of NOT seeing what I'm looking for, amidst a pile of similar items.
wearing an eye-patch. I got surprised bunches of times during renfair, on my patch side. Loss of 50% peripheral vision. I'm right-eye dominant, so I don't use my left for seeing, so much as peripheral extension. It's really hard taking the vision test at the DMV, because I have to conciously switch to my left eye for some of the slides.
It looks like there's enough data, and rationalizations to justify rolling or not rolling perception checks. I'd recommend using the rationalization/explanation that justifies the RAW.
The video demonstrates why we might fail to perceive somthing that is there, because we were distracted by another task but does not say wether we should be making the preception check or the DM rolling hide againt our passive perception. I prefer the latter because that way the players don't get to tell the characters.
Wow, I missed it. My vision effectively tunneled so I just focused on those wearing white and all movement from the players wearing black was ignored. Had the costume been white or had you asked to watch those wearing black I think I would have noticed the women in the costume.
14, and I saw the gorilla. I personally don't have a problem with Perception checks, though, because I've had the Combat Stress thing happen more than a few times in laser tag (with all the noise, it can be hard to notice people who are moving in such a way as to collide with you) and it represents things like you just looking the wrong way at the wrong time.
I mean, sure I saw the gorilla, but I could still nat 1 the Perception check against that assassin to my left...
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