General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
This is meant as a companion thread for my "How I Fixed 4e" thread to gather feedback and share ideas for my upcoming campaign. Feel free to chime in with any ideas or suggestions that come to mind.
I've recently been reading some of the Ethshar books by Lawrence Watt-Evans (all of them are stand-alone, fun reads if you haven't read them) and one of them mentions "The Edge of the World". I was kind of intrigued by that idea as well as the region called "The Small Kingdoms" where there are a couple of hundred tiny kingdoms crammed into a relatively small geographic area. Each kingdom has its own laws and customs and, in some cases, language.
There is another book in my collection, this one by Larry Niven as part of his Known Space series, called A Gift From Earth about a planet colonized by humans. The trick with this place is that the entire planet was uninhabitable because of the very dense atmosphere, except for one VERY high plateau that sticks up high enough that the air there is breathable. It provides a habitable area roughly the size of California. They have a litteral edge to their world.
These ideas collided in my brain in a sort of "got chocolate in my peanut butter" kind of way that has me envisioning the following:
What if my world is like that where the habitable portion is up high enough that the air isn't poisonous. But instead of one big plateau, it is a series of smaller ones. Perhaps dozens or hundreds of smaller ones. Some of them comprise their own kingdoms and each has a different name. Some of them are big enough to be home to multiple kingdoms that may or may not be at peace with one another.
Not all are at the same height. Some are down in "The Mist" where the air is hot and thick. And they are not uninhabited because that is where "The Mist Demons" live. These are, literally, demons. Nobody is sure whether Tieflings are Mist Demons who discovered a way to survive at higher altitudes or if they are a species created when some of the Mist Demons bred with humanity. But they came from the lower altitudes of some of the habitable plateaus and they seem to have a higher tolerance for The Mist.
Higher plateaus have thin air and are colder. This is were the Dwarves hailed from. Most of their people still live up there "In The Thin" but some have migrated down to lower altitudes where their stout frames, adapted for the cold, serve them with extra toughness. There are plateaus even higher than the Dwarves can tolerate and that is where the Angels (some say even the Gods) dwell.
Transportation between plateaus happens in a lot of different ways. Some are connected by narrow land "bridges". Some of these bridges dip down into The Mist or arch up into The Thin where only those who are tough or have magical or alchemical assistance dare travel. Caravans move along these paths where they are often in jeopardy of attack from barbarians, monsters, Mist Demons or Drakes.
In other places the way to get from one plateau to another is by flying. Sometimes this is done with mounts like Wyverns or tamed Drakes. Sometimes on the backs of the enormous Mist Whales. In other places the Eladrin use their Winged Ships to sail across these expanses. In any event, it is a risky, dangerous business where one might come under attack from Sky Pirates, dangerous creatures or even be forced by a storm to land upon a normally uninhabitable plateau.
For the Kingdoms where magic is more prevalent, the Wizard's Guild maintains strict control over trade and travel by use of their Linked Portals (as per the Ritual). They take a very dim view of those who try and circumvent their Portals and have been known to burn Airships and Mounts for daring to challenge their monopoly.
For the average peasant the whole of their lives goes by without them ever setting foot upon another plateau. But for others, they dream of what lies beyond the horizon where the cliffs fall away into The Mist. Intrigues and exploration may take them to foreign plateaus or even those that have never been discovered at all. Legends tell of places far, far to the west where there are gigantic plateaus the size of a hundred Kingdoms where one can walk for weeks without ever leaving the same plateau. Could those legends be true? Perhaps the PC's will find out...
It's certainly an interesting premise for a campaign setting. I wonder, however, if you're getting carried away with the fresh ideas. For example, Rich Burlew wrote about his campaign setting taking place on a cube - which he thought was a great idea at the time, but it never actually had an impact on the world. If an "expedition into the Mist" is just like an "expedition into the Wild", why not just have the Wild?
So I guess my question is, how will this actually make the game different?
Cool setting, I think if you emphasize the Mist as the main overarching frame-work for the setting, development of culture, etc. it could work quite well.
Some ideas/questions:
-How did the plateau races develop? If these are small plateaus and only some have land bridges how did Humans and other races develop, ie: did they develop Island Syndrome?
-Are Tieflings going to have instead of Fire Resistance going to have Poison or whatever you will define the poisonous property of the Mist as?
-Instead of just land bridges and flying could there be types of essentially "sky lifts" to ferry people and supplies back and forth between nearby plateaus?
-Have you seen The Mist? Could generate some ideas on how the Mist looks, what the Monsters are like, general atmosphere, etc, etc.
-Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles uses poisonous mist and magical means to walk through it. Some ideas could be gathered from there.
-Where do I sign up to play :P
Also, I know drawings that could have lots of inspiration/be used for examples for your players that I can post if you wish
It's certainly an interesting premise for a campaign setting. I wonder, however, if you're getting carried away with the fresh ideas. For example, Rich Burlew wrote about his campaign setting taking place on a cube - which he thought was a great idea at the time, but it never actually had an impact on the world. If an "expedition into the Mist" is just like an "expedition into the Wild", why not just have the Wild?
So I guess my question is, how will this actually make the game different?
Well, for starters, it obviously limits travel incredibly. That also makes trade difficult and provides a motivation for a lot of adventuring ideas (caravan guards, search for downed airships, shipwrecked below the Mistline, etc.). Also The Mist makes for an ever present threat since it is a form of Chaos and Magic. It tends to mutate those it touches but also harbors many things, both natural and supernatural, that are ingredients for magical items and rituals.
I see it as the defining feature of the whole setting.
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Originally Posted by Fallen Seraph
Cool setting, I think if you emphasize the Mist as the main overarching frame-work for the setting, development of culture, etc. it could work quite well.
See above.
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Some ideas/questions:
-How did the plateau races develop? If these are small plateaus and only some have land bridges how did Humans and other races develop, ie: did they develop Island Syndrome?
The world wasn't always like this. It wasn't until "The Cataclysm" came that The Mist enshrouded the world. Only those quick enough to get to high ground escaped its clutches.
How's that? I just made it up.
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-Are Tieflings going to have instead of Fire Resistance going to have Poison or whatever you will define the poisonous property of the Mist as?
Yes.
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-Instead of just land bridges and flying could there be types of essentially "sky lifts" to ferry people and supplies back and forth between nearby plateaus?
That's exactly the kind of great ideas I was hoping to get. I'm adding that.
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-Have you seen The Mist? Could generate some ideas on how the Mist looks, what the Monsters are like, general atmosphere, etc, etc.
Yes. And it is a terrifying movie. But not because of what's in The Mist.
Quote:
-Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles uses poisonous mist and magical means to walk through it. Some ideas could be gathered from there.
Never heard of it. Got links to any resources?
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-Where do I sign up to play :P
Also, I know drawings that could have lots of inspiration/be used for examples for your players that I can post if you wish
Game will be in North Carolina. And I would LOVE any pics you care to post. Again, just the sort of thing I'm looking for with this thread.
Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles was a obviously FF but for the Gamecube. It got beaten down for being real-time, multiplayer oriented and looking kiddy like, but it had actual interesting plot-line/gameplay elements.
From the wiki:
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In Crystal Chronicles, the world is covered by a strange, invisible toxin in the air, known as miasma. It is poisonous to the four races: Selkies, Lilties, Clavats, and Yukes. Despite this, cities are located in several places, protected by magical crystals that fend off the miasma, but are fueled by a rare substance known as Myrrh. To collect the Myrrh, which can only be found on a rare breed of tree, each city recruits a crystal caravan. These caravans carry with them a "crystal chalice", a magical container with a shard of protective crystal attached. The caravans then travel around the world, seeking the trees that bear the magical essence.
Some images/ideas:
I am sure some arcanist have tried to use the magic that empowers the Winged Ships (taking the assumption it is magic here) and tried to rise whole plateaus into the sky, this is a result: Vehicles: Island
Even the mighty Mist Whales are sometimes brought down by curses and evil sorcery, one such beast is the undead Mist Whale: Floating Undead Leviathan
Just two images to start off.
Are you planning on having any traditonal airships, like zeppelin/baloon style?
Oh and one gameplay idea I saw on the WoTC forum that could work maybe. It would take longer time but could lead to some frightful/intense combat. This DM would blindfold each player and then move the pieces on the board to reflect what the player who becomes unfolded what his character could see, after he does his thing. He becomes re-blindfolded and this repeats.
FF: Crystal Chronicles was one of the first things that came to mind. Also, Final Fantasy IX had a huge "Mist" entity. Crystal Chronicles, though, definitely, right when you spoke of the journeys through the mist, which is exactly what that game is all about.
I think your world idea is excellent. I'm curious though about how the Mist got there. Was there a world below at one point? Are there ruins left there now? Could you venture to find them? I find that what helps me with mysteries such as the one you've devised, especially with world ideas, is finding out how things came to be. Creation myths and other histories are great ways of stumbling upon great themes for your world or campaigns that might take place there.
you might check out the support sight for Necro's 3e adventure Grey Citadel. That adventure has a misty theme and the webite has some misty ideas. Dark Loch Creative Enterprise
Was thinking a bit about this, in some regards the Mist shares some traits with oceans/seas. If you consider the plateaus, "land", when you go into the ocean you descend and it is a inhospitable environment for humans.
As such, I was thinking a more technologically advance culture on one of the plateaus could have invented things like; diving bells, diving suits, etc. but made for going into the Mist. They could hire out Eladrin Winged Ships or Mist Whales fly over to where something is they want and carefully descend their diving bell or suit into the Mist.
Was thinking a bit about this, in some regards the Mist shares some traits with oceans/seas. If you consider the plateaus, "land", when you go into the ocean you descend and it is a inhospitable environment for humans.
All the moreso when you consider that The Mist will be effected by tides.
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As such, I was thinking a more technologically advance culture on one of the plateaus could have invented things like; diving bells, diving suits, etc. but made for going into the Mist. They could hire out Eladrin Winged Ships or Mist Whales fly over to where something is they want and carefully descend their diving bell or suit into the Mist.
I think this idea is cool but would be the exception to the rule. As I've developed the idea more, I'm leaning toward the Eladrin winged ships being extremely rare. Airship travel is more often undertaken in much more fragile (and dangerous) equivalents of hot air balloons.
I don't know how much of a real effect the mist will have to make the setting unique over just having vast oceans, but it is definitely cooler and more interesting. I feel like the best campaign ideas are ones that make everything more colorful and vibrant without vastly changing mechanics which means I like the fact that this setting would not play significantly different from an island campaign. Very neat idea.
By the way. Have you ever played Skies of Arcadia. It is EXTREMELY similar to your campaign world. If you have not, you should check it out and maybe pirate a few ideas from it.
Sorry, I am technologically inept, so I won't give you a link but just look it up on wikipedia. (Or play the game, it is really fun)
Ah, miasma! Be sure to check out both the manga, and the anime Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind. Especially check out the manga. Most likely the local library has it on hand, I live on a small island and they have both.
Definitely crucial readings for this type of setting.
Very cool idea. Another setting with a similar feature is L5R. The shadowlands in that game are tainted. The taint is corruptive and insidious and can turn even the shiniest paladin into Darth Sidious. However jade blocks the effect by absorbing the corruption into itself. So you an travel the shadowlands without fear of the taint (there's plenty else to fear) but only until all your jade dissolves away into goo.
Some kind of similarly abalative protetion from the mist may have been discovered in some places, allowing short expeditions into the mist, as long as you don't run out of Potion X. It's a good way to put time pressure into a scenario, although this is less of a consideration in 4e than in 3e.
P.S. I'm totally pictureing zepplins towed by wyverns.
__________________ -Andor
"Congratulations. You just invented 'negligent regicide.'" - Schlock Mercenary
Alright, I'm getting down to some real world building working from the inside out. Mostly right now I'm trying to nail down some of the economic and lifestyle considerations of the world I've created.
Obviously the foremost among these is that trade between plateaus is made vastly more difficult by the distances involved and limited connectivity between them. The wealth of an average kingdom will be primarily determined by how self sufficient it is (reducing the need for importing materials and finished goods) and/or whether it has surplus resources to export and how easily transportable these exports are.
For example a plateau might have a lot of trees growing on it. Wood will always be a valuable resource in this setting. But it doesn't make a fantastic export because it's so heavy and bulky that transport is extremely difficult. On the other hand, if they have a particular type of wood that is especially good for making bows then that plateau might export that material in small (but valuable) quantities.
This also brings up the idea that it will almost always be more profitable and sensible to ship finished goods rather than raw materials. The kingdom the PC's will start in (Semma) has a lot of sheep and prides itself on very fine wool. They could (and probably do to a small extent) ship this wool to other plateaus. But they also have a sizable population of weavers and tailors who turn the wool into finished cloth and clothing. This would minimize waste at the destination and reduce transport costs as much as possible (I think).
It also seems like it would encourage another theme: Guilds. With populations of craftsmen concentrated near the resource production areas, and with movement of the general populace more limited than in a normal world, it seems likely that there would emerge techniques and formulae that amount to "trade secrets" that might be closely guarded. I've never run a campaign where this idea was a major theme but I'm leaning towards it for this one. It sets up a host of mercantile entities that intermingle and frequently conflict with political power structures.
So right now I'm at the point of deciding what sorts of resources the various nearby plateaus have available. And this should point up some interesting trade relationships that can emerge from that interplay.
One final thing that occurred to me while envisioning this: Food is going to be an interesting comodity. Given the small geographical areas and lack of arable land it seems likely that the diet of the average citizen will be pretty limited. In Semma they eat a lot of mutton I guess. Only the rich can afford to eat a wide variety of foods imported from faraway places. Some foods might be extremely prized for their rarity to the point that it is illegal for any but royalty to eat them (maybe fish given that large bodies of water are few and far between).
Was thinking a bit about this, in some regards the Mist shares some traits with oceans/seas. If you consider the plateaus, "land", when you go into the ocean you descend and it is a inhospitable environment for humans.
As such, I was thinking a more technologically advance culture on one of the plateaus could have invented things like; diving bells, diving suits, etc. but made for going into the Mist. They could hire out Eladrin Winged Ships or Mist Whales fly over to where something is they want and carefully descend their diving bell or suit into the Mist.
Then clearly someone will have developed ships that float on the mist... For some reason I'm picturing these to be long and wide and FLAT ... like a giant floating piece of plywood.
__________________ I am not a number! I am a human being!
Your mountaintop archipelago world reminds me of other sci-fi storylines as well- Niven's Integral Trees stories and Hal Clement's Mesklin stories, collected in the book, Heavy World.Waterworld also springs to mind.
Like the Integral Trees stories, one of the limiting factors to any culture will be scarce resources.
1) With the high-points split up into a myriad of peaks like a chain of islands in the Pacific, your people are going to have a devilish time getting fresh water. This is assuming (as I believe) that high-altitude air can't hold as much H2O, which will translate into less precipitation, and thus, less easily retrieved water.
2) Nutrition in general will be more difficult. (Think of Easter Island or pre-freeze Greenland.) Some peaks might not be big enough or fertile enough to support a wide enough variety of flora and fauna to support long-term settlements. This could lead some settlements to have harsh population controls, enforced by government (Logan's Run) or religion (any faith involving ritual sacrifice).
3) If you have races that are miasma-native or miasma tolerant, you've got the basis for trade and conflict similar to fictionalized accounts of interactions between Atlanteans and "Surface Dwellers"...or Elves and Drow...or Eloi and Moorlocks.
Like on Mesklin, travel between settlements will be difficult, but with potentially high rewards for intrepid merchants.
1) Anyone who comes up with a new and reliable way to survive and navigate the miasma has an immense "technological" advantage.
2) The isolation of the settlements will mean that you'll have varied rates of tech and magic advancement, linguistic divergence, and possibly even genetic diversions & bottlenecks (see Darwin & the Galapagos for a refresher).
Divergent tech/magic could include things like:
1) Hot air baloons or dirigibles for travel. Perhaps some settlements have access to plant material (like Liftwood from Space:1889), a mineral or alloy like Cavorite (like in First Men in the Moon) that makes heavier than air flight possible. These would be resources worth fighting for...
Other artificial flight methods could include aircraft deriving lift from enslaved or allied air or fire elementals, working ornithopters, or even sophisticated gliders.
As a potential "megastructure," perhaps someone is building or has built a skybridge similar to a rope bridge but with a system of baloons/dirigibles supporting some of the spans over deep and wide chasms. It couldn't support much more than foot traffic and pack animals, though- no cargo or war vehicles would work due to weight.
2) Using open portals to the Plane of Air to supply additional oxygen. This could mean added land for a settlement and easier mining of resources. Such a portal could even be used to pump air into RW "diving suits" or something more akin to those in 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea.
3) Some alloys and materials may not be universally available. In short, you have the basis for a DarkSun type economy.
4) Perhaps someone successfully makes an "airtight" vehicle that carries a smaller portal to the plane of air- essentially a "submarine."
One final thing that occurred to me while envisioning this: Food is going to be an interesting comodity.
And so you could easily explain why barbarians raiders are cannibals. A floating island full of anthropophagous orcs can be a fun plot device... The PC can learn that the neighbouring plateau has been ravaged by the orcs. They have to find a way to foil the invasion of their own plateau. Think about starwars "deathstar" but with ravening orcs (or demons) rather than giant laser beam.
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