The New 4th Edition God-Killing Rules

JackSmithIV · 19th November 2008, 07:15 PM

I have always been fascinated by the idea of being able to fight a god. I imagined we'd see rules and information regarding the fighting of gods in the Manual of the Planes. But it seems Christmas has come early...

The first Draconomicon, released the other day, includes stats for Tiamat, the goddess whom at the sundering of Io split off and became the antithesis for Bahamut and the patron deity of chromatic dragons (zing). Not an aspect, mind you, the god, pure and simple. The stat block is enourmous, and has almost an entire column dedicated to it (the opposite column to her 5 heads; she has such a cool way of fighting). It only took a few moments to notice the two little columns added in.

The first describes the deity's special rules. There's a few nifty things like not being able to be attacked by anyone not in the epic tier, being able to do a savings throw against any effect immediately, and then the bit about "Discorporation". Discorporation is an ability that gods have (represented in their stat block) that allow them to, when bloodied, essentially retreat from the fight immediately and go into a sort of spiritual rehab on the Astral Plan, no longer able to take physical form for anywhere between a few weeks to a year, essentially making them immortal. Unless (!!) you meet specific set of requirements...

This leads to the second column, called "Destroying Tiamat". It contains 3 hooks for quests that once completed, allow you to truely destroy her. Put together, they're simply some of the most epic, badass quest hooks I've seen for epic-level play in a long time, including a plot to use a treasure recovered from a githyanki shipwreck on the astral sea to draw her into a domain of bahamut, killing her consorts and fashoning their bones into weapons, etc...

Now, the tricky thing is that the language is vague, and sometimes infers that if these conditions are met, she is (instead of discorporated) killed when reaching bloodied value. I think what the designers meant to do was to infer that this ability is disabled, and that you still have to bring her the rest of the way to 0 hp, instead of only halfway to 800-something. If anyone can shed light on this, let me know.

Anyhow, I thought someone else might have an opinion on this, and want to discuss. I am merely super-excited. It think it's epic, awesome, and totally friggin' cool, and wish I'd thought of it first.

Discuss!

Wootz · 19th November 2008, 07:25 PM

Freakin sweet. It's a shame I don't have the same sort of money I used to, or I would definitely buy this book.

Logan_Bonner · 19th November 2008, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackSmithIV

I think what the designers meant to do was to infer that this ability is disabled, and that you still have to bring her the rest of the way to 0 hp, instead of only halfway to 800-something.

That is what we meant. I'm glad you like Tiamat and the quests, and I hope you look forward to the other deities that are on their way!

blargney the second · 19th November 2008, 08:03 PM

Wow, that sounds amazing. I really like that deicide involves epic quests in addition to the ginormous slugfest that one would hope for.

Lonely Tylenol · 19th November 2008, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blargney the second

Wow, that sounds amazing. I really like that deicide involves epic quests in addition to the ginormous slugfest that one would hope for.

Man, I haven't killed a god since 1st edition. This is a part of the game that we seriously needed to return to. 3rd edition Deities and Demigods was a mess of useless and gigantic statblocks, but I can see a 4th edition Deities & Demigods reading like a menu of epic murder.

JackSmithIV · 19th November 2008, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WotC_Logan

That is what we meant. I'm glad you like Tiamat and the quests, and I hope you look forward to the other deities that are on their way!

Thanks a bunch for clarifying! I think it's an incredibly testiment to epic 4E play... can't wait for more!

Joshua Randall · 19th November 2008, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol

I can see a 4th edition Deities & Demigods reading like a menu of epic murder.

That's a nice turn of phrase, there.

I'm going to use it the next time I eat at some really bad fast food place.

Derren · 19th November 2008, 08:48 PM

So, when do you think will the CharOp board find a way to either 1 hit kill Tiamat or solo Tiamat?

Shemeska · 19th November 2008, 08:49 PM

Way to turn the fantastic into the prosaic...

Mallus · 19th November 2008, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shemeska

Way to turn the fantastic into the prosaic...

A perfect tag line for D&D if I've ever heard one.

"D&D... turning the fantastic into the prosaic since 1974!"

(Didn't most of the deities and demigods in the original Deities and Demigods go down like a bunch of chumps? Even Thor didn't have too many HP...).

RangerWickett · 19th November 2008, 09:27 PM

Shem, how would you prefer the game handle deicide? If we are starting with the assumption that some GMs want to run a game where the PCs have a chance to kill a god, how do you think it should go?

Shemeska · 19th November 2008, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RangerWickett

Shem, how would you prefer the game handle deicide? If we are starting with the assumption that some GMs want to run a game where the PCs have a chance to kill a god, how do you think it should go?

Without resorting to treating them like end-level boss monsters at the end of a planar dungeon. And if they really truly want a PCs vs Deity roll for initiative style fight, make the stats to fit their needs, because at that end of things, the numerical stats tend to be an absolutely ludicrous block of numbers that you might as well make them up arbitrarily for your game.

Full blown deity stats are a waste of page space IMO (and I really do adore Erik Mona's comments on deity stat blocks after he had to write a ton of them for 3.x FR's Faiths&Pantheons) because they set as standard the idea of using such beings as even bigger monsters, rather than as anything more fantastic and removed from the mundane world of human vs orc, etc.

Avatars can have their uses certainly, but for actual conflict with a god, you can avoid the grossly mundane standup fight with the always fun use of artifacts and such Macguffins, playing the tricky game of planar politics and pitting gods against one another, or dragging planar lords like archfiends into the mix if you really want to get your hands dirty.

I've had deicide in my games before, but never once has a PC rolled to hit Thor with a +35 axe of overkill or anything similar. It's just not a playstyle I care for, and certainly one that makes me sigh to see implicitly promoted in 4e. As much grief as I've been prone to give WotC, I'd like to see them make a damn good planar book because it promotes the sub-genre of gaming that's my personal favorite. But if they're giving deity stats for PCs to fight, that's a step towards a vision of planar beings that's just about anathema to my own.

More coherent and possibly less unintentionally offense comments on this later tonight. At work, typing in between things as I can.

Fallen Seraph · 19th November 2008, 10:11 PM

But that is simply one play-style for one style of campaign, what if a person wants a campaign where the gods aren't so high and mighty and away from the world.

Hell, I have run both types of campaigns in a essentially Planescape world. One where the gods are distant and essentially unkillable (besides other gods obviously). In another while the gods are certainly powerful you see in the newspaper the next morning that one was stabbed to death while engaging in a chess match with some crazy, ass devil for instance.

It is easier to take away something like full-blown God stats then it is too create it. So if I have a campaign where the Gods don't die I don't need the stats, if it is a campaign where they do I need the stats.

Phoenix8008 · 19th November 2008, 10:14 PM

I remember my god hunting days of glory in 1E. Took Odin out without much effort. Just kept teleporting him to places I didn't know until the roll came up that he wound up underground and auto-killed. Then went and dug up his spear and shield.

Ahhh, the good old days.

WalterKovacs · 19th November 2008, 10:19 PM

The talk of how things seem to work reminds me a bit of the D&D cartoon, specifically where they decide to go on the offensive against the "bad guy", even making a deal with Tiamat.

That is what it sounds like. You have the epic portion of the campaign where the god has taken notice of the adventurers and is basically using their divine influence to try to stop the party ... it eventually reaches the point where the party takes on the quest to basically force the god to fight them on their terms. There may be a way to stop the god without directly confronting it ... but the god can show up and try to stop them from accomplishing the goal ...

While the god stat blocks encourage DMs to use 'em as a big bad end boss ... the attached "quest to be able to kill, and not just bloody and scare off" plot hooks can give the kind of campaign where it's not just a fight to kill the god. A fight may take place to finish the job ... but you have to get it to that point in the first place.