General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
I'm a D&D fan. I prefer 3rd edition. I considered playing 4th edition because there would be good third party support on board. Then the GSL happened. Or didn't.
I know Scott Rouse supposedly has been working on it, but it's been FOREVER.
I suggest that each third party publisher independently (or in a "union" or "coalition" along with other companies that want to produce 4th edition products) set a deadline to WotC. If there is not a viable GSL at that point, each company (or all the companies) will go with Pathfinder.
Eh, I'm sure they are doing everything they can. I think setting a deadline creates more tension. I'm fine with waiting. I know people who want the products aren't, but it is what it is.
__________________ Jeffrey J. Visgaitis
Creative Director The Inner Circle
Yeah , let's make demands and ultimatums to WOTC to use THEIR IP
Yeah..that oughta work
__________________ Founding Father of O.A.F! - Old school Admirers of Fourth edition
Proud Rouseketeers Member-Badge #2!
"I feel books like "A Princess of Mars", "The Swords of Lankhmar" and "The Black Company" are far more important to your gaming experience than whether you choose between OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, or D&D4E." - The Ravyn
I think people sometimes get too fixated about what's "official" to see what they could do with the whole- "David "Zeb" Cook
How much of the non-EnWorld/Die Hard Internet fanbase follows third party news, let alone would be greatly impacted if Third Parties left the game? Many places where people buy their books have few if any third party options. And many gamers just play "What D&D is".
Pathfinder is a limited number of people. It's also a hedgy bet: where will Pathfinder be in 3 years? 5 years? 10 years? Compare that to being on the side of WotC.
Worse yet, a deadline of this magnitude may not help matters. Scott Rouse is the only one working on it. You also have the issue that it coudl be the legal team holding up. Said legal team likely won't be intimidated by 3rd party hostage taking. Scott Rouse likely can't force the issue, deadline or no.
How much of the non-EnWorld/Die Hard Internet fanbase follows third party news, let alone would be greatly impacted if Third Parties left the game? Many places where people buy their books have few if any third party options. And many gamers just play "What D&D is".
Pathfinder is a limited number of people. It's also a hedgy bet: where will Pathfinder be in 3 years? 5 years? 10 years? Compare that to being on the side of WotC.
Worse yet, a deadline of this magnitude may not help matters. Scott Rouse is the only one working on it. You also have the issue that it coudl be the legal team holding up. Said legal team likely won't be intimidated by 3rd party hostage taking. Scott Rouse likely can't force the issue, deadline or no.
This. Much better than my feeble attempt. Well said.
__________________ Jeffrey J. Visgaitis
Creative Director The Inner Circle
I'm not necessarily JUST saying that "Hostage taking" should occur (though admittedly that is part of it).
I'm saying a few things here:
1. If third party are important, WotC might put some more resources into Scott Rouse's corner...whatever those resources might be. They might just relax some of the other innumerable demands upon the poor guy. I'm not suggesting Scott Rouse doesn't care or isn't working on it on purpose. I'm suggesting that he is overburdened and CAN'T make it a priority. That or WotC/Hasbro isn't making it a priority if it is stuck in lawyers or whatever.
2. If third party are important, this extra pressure might just help this to happen. I know I will only be getting into fourth edition with sufficient 3rd party support. Necromancer would be enough (or Malhavoc if they started publishing). Multiple other 3rd party supporters that I like would also be enough: Say a quorum of Green Ronin, Goodman (who IS supporting), Mongoose, Privateer Press, Paradigm Concepts, and Fantasy Flight Games. Right now it is mostly smaller publishers I'm unfamiliar with. They might be great, but they're not enough to draw me in.
3. If third party support is NOT important, this might just be a message to them that WotC is going to sit on this GSL until the cows come home, and waiting for something viable is a pipe dream. Hence, taking a "poop or get off the pot" stance MIGHT be of use in this. It could even be a deadline set of "get it to us by February 2009 or we'll CONSIDER going with pathfinder". It need not be "hostage taking" but the message should be there. Of course, a firm deadline with a firm consequence would be more powerful.
4. Pathfinder, of course, is NOT WotC. They don't have the numbers, nor do they have the third party support (yet). However, lots of things start small. Necromancer had considered Pathfinder originally, and I wonder if they still are considering it. Other companies (like Privateer Press and Pardigm Concepts don't like 4e for their line of games). Pathfinder might be a better "fit" for their model anyway. I guess what I'm saying here is that IF there was enough third party support, it may help Pathfinder to continue to grow, making the venture more stable. This is part of the reason I have the "coalition" idea.
How much of the non-EnWorld/Die Hard Internet fanbase follows third party news, let alone would be greatly impacted if Third Parties left the game?
Most of the 3e-playing gamers I've met over the last oh, 5 years or so, for example. And that's actually quite a few gamers. Note: most, not all, but still. . . And yes, it's anecdotal, but then I can't think of a more reliable way for *me* to get a sense of these things. Anyone Else's Mileage Could Certainly Vary, Of Course. 3rd party books are definitely on the menu, around here, and have been for years. Well, some of them.
Quote:
Pathfinder is a limited number of people. It's also a hedgy bet: where will Pathfinder be in 3 years? 5 years? 10 years? Compare that to being on the side of WotC.
Could you please back this up with some numbers? What do you mean by 'a limited number'? And, when it comes to bets and so on, the almighty WotC could go the way of GenCon, or yeah, TSR for that matter - who knows. You don't. I don't. . . etc.
If there is not a viable GSL at that point, Green Ronin (or all the companies) will go with Pathfinder.
Green Ronin (last I heard) was gearing up for their A Song of Ice and Fire RPG - I don't think they would go 4E or Pathfinder at this point beyond a possible Freeport companion guide for each system (unless it was a bestseller for them, which might lure them to test the waters with a 2nd product).
Most of the 3e-playing gamers I've met over the last oh, 5 years or so, for example.
Anecdotal evidence.
Quote:
Could you please back this up with some numbers? What do you mean by 'a limited number'?
When someone does a study on D&D gamers, then numbers you will receive. But the case is really simple:
3e is an older edition. Therefore, the only players you are going to get are those that are not moving on to the new edition.
That in and of itself is a limited number. New players aren't going to want to learn the old system; new players are like "I want to play D&D, what's this system you're going on about?".
Not only that, but Pathfinder is an off-shot of 3.5. So you're splitting the numbers further between those sticking with 3.5 and those moving to Pathfinder.
It's limited because you're splitting your buyers, and new customers are harder to come by.
Pathfinder is, essentially, selling to the choir.
This isn't a dig at Pathfinder. I would like pathfinder to succeed; the more people playing the game they like, the better. But Pathfinder is a niche market in a niche market, and you're better off looking at the situation of sales and players in a realistic manner.
How much of the non-EnWorld/Die Hard Internet fanbase follows third party news, let alone would be greatly impacted if Third Parties left the game?
About a 1 to 1 correlation with those who want 3rd party production. I.E. everyone who cares about the GSL and everyone who would expand or develop interest in 4e if there were third party production.
A good way to answer this is "what have the 4e sales for Goodman and KenzerCo been like"? That gives us a very rough idea of the numbers of people that this could affect. Another question might be "what kind of sales numbers did the companies I mention who are not converting have". That gives us an idea of the "investment potential" (term I made up, not sure if it might be an economic term or not) available in this opportunity.
I've constantly seen third party importance derided. It may be unimportant to WotC. It is clearly not unimportant to all the people who bought third party products, and who wish to continue to do so.
I can only speak for myself here. I have all but about 10 or so WotC books from third edition. I have a greater number of books from third party publishers (but none individually greater than WotC). I haven't bought a single 4th edition product. If I were convinced to (through having adventures beyond the "generic", "vanilla" ones from WotC), I'd likely drop a couple of thousand dollars on WotC products. As it is, I see no reason to collect WotC products at the present time. I suspect I am not alone in this regard.
Green Ronin (last I heard) was gearing up for their A Song of Ice and Fire RPG - I don't think they would go 4E or Pathfinder at this point beyond a possible Freeport companion guide for each system (unless it was a bestseller for them, which might lure them to test the waters with a 2nd product).
Oops. That quote was an artifact from my cutting and pasting. I fixed/edited the original.
I'm not sure about your concern. You may be right. I do think that there would still be support for freeport through pathfinder. Green ronin could test the waters with "Pirate's Guide to Freeport" which was systemless, and then they released the system "crunch" in specific supplements...for True 20 and d20. I imagine that a pathfinder version (when it comes out) could be an option as well, and give them an idea of sales.
3e is an older edition. Therefore, the only players you are going to get are those that are not moving on to the new edition.
That in and of itself is a limited number. New players aren't going to want to learn the old system; new players are like "I want to play D&D, what's this system you're going on about?".
Not only that, but Pathfinder is an off-shot of 3.5. So you're splitting the numbers further between those sticking with 3.5 and those moving to Pathfinder.
It's limited because you're splitting your buyers, and new customers are harder to come by.
Pathfinder is, essentially, selling to the choir.
While this is true, it is only one factor. There are things larger than edition that are to be considered for at least some third party gamers. I am a bigger fan of Necromancer than ANY edition. I'd buy their products if they came out with 3rd, 4th, pathfinder, or their own system. Same is true for the Midnight setting of Fantasy flight games, Green Ronin's Freeport, Privateer Press's Iron Kingdoms, or Paradigm Concept's Arcanis.
I actually prefer third edition to Pathfinder, but I'll take what I can get.
In any case, it's not that I want these companies to produce for pathfinder or for 4e. I just want products from them. I can convert them as I need. (Though if they were all one or two systems, that would be ideal)
On the other hand, products like Goodman's 4e dungeon crawls are not world specific, nor are they usually as inventive as the Necromancer adventures. I'd buy those if I wanted more 4e adventures (same reason I buy the third edition ones). They are great dungeon crawls. But that's generally all they are. They're not a reason to get into fourth edition, they're a reason to stay with fourth edition and broaden it. If I'm convinced to get 4e, I'll definitely buy their products to get more 4e. But what I'm looking for is diversity in 4e before I buy. If I can get that, I'm in.
Heck, I'd even convert my 3e stuff to 4e if they were in the same gaming worlds.
Last edited by Aberzanzorax; 26th November 2008 at 04:13 PM..
Yes, let's give WotC a deadline on something they never *had* to allow in the first place because I can't wait to get my hands on another market glut of halfassed products!
That sounds like an EXCELLENT idea! Wait..no...no it doesn't.
__________________ ______________
Prince Nightchilde
I'm always looking for new Friends on Xbox Live & the Playstation Network. My username is Nightchilde. Add me!
My understanding is the opposite. From Scott Rouse's last posts, it sounds like he's the only one who cares about it, and for the GSL to get updated he has to do the whole thing himself in his spare time at work (which he hasn't had).
__________________ ADVANCED DUNGEONS &DRAGONS is first and foremost a game for the fun and enjoyment of those who seek to use imagination and creativity. This is not to say that where it does not interfere with the flow of the game that the highest degree of realism hasn‘t been attempted, but neither is a serious approach to play discouraged. (1E DMG p. 9)
It seems to me that the 3PP have more to lose than WotC by walking away from the table, so to speak. And I imagine WotC knows this. As such an ultimatum would be completely counter-productive.
__________________ Iain Fyffe
Original member of the Rouseketeers!
I have played 4E. And just like all other editions of D&D, it is awesome!
no one quotes me in sigs - Crothian
For some reason, this doesn't fill me with rage. I must be interwebbing wrong. - Cadfan
And what is statistical data but just a collection of anecdotes? Actually, if he's got a certain number of friends who are waiting for 3rd party support, then he's not just working with anecdotal evidence at all. He's just got a very small sample size with a lot of selection bias.
__________________ Bill D
"There's a fine line between a superpower and a chronic medical condition."
- Doctor Impossible
I don't think the GSL is going to satisfy everyone in the end. The OGL allowed 3PP to put out material wildly different from core D&D and many 3PP fans enjoyed mixing and matching the two into their own game. One of the things the GSL is very specific about is maintaining the integrity of the D&D paradigm. There will be less innovation, and most 3PP material will follow the 4E paradigm fairly closely, as the Advanced Player's Guide and the other book like it have done. Things like Arcana Evolved and Iron Heroes will not happen. People who want 3PP to be like they were during 3E are going to be disappointed no matter when the GSL comes out.
As somebody who likes alternate systems not based on the d20, and who lamented how the d20 glut marginalized non-d20 systems, I'm perfectly fine with WotC taking their time.
And what is statistical data but just a collection of anecdotes? Actually, if he's got a certain number of friends who are waiting for 3rd party support, then he's not just working with anecdotal evidence at all. He's just got a very small sample size with a lot of selection bias.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data."
Small sample size + large selection bias + lack of verification more or less renders the data unusable. It only tells you about the self-selected, non random group that's providing the anecdotes and cannot be extended to gamers as a whole.
3rd party books are definitely on the menu, around here, and have been for years. Well, some of them.
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
