A Brief History of Tolkien RPGs

[garyh]

Originally Posted by Ydars

I always wanted to run an adventure where the PCs were one of the parties sent out ahead of the Fellowship to draw off the eye of Sauron and his minions.

In LoTR it mentions that in the days before the council, Elrond's sons Elladan and Elrohir went out into the land and checked many passes including Caradhras and passed on into Lorien. It also hints at attempts to confuse or decieve the eye and his spies.

It would be great if a party, including some dwarves disguised as hobbits, set out from Rivendell pursued by Sauron's agents. I would have had them head away from the route of the Fellowship towards where Tharbad once stood (in Cardolan) and then head south to Gondor, since that is what Sauron would expect; ie he expected someone to take up the ring and try to master it and challenge him for its power, not try to destroy it.

That way the party could be part of that great tale without actually having to alter history. They could even carry something (a lesser ring) to convince the eye they had his prize.

I really, really like this idea.

[scourger]

Originally Posted by Daztur

What I'd do if I ever ran a game in the Middle Earth is start it off like this:

"Frodo just got ran over by a horse cart and the Sacksville Baggins have finally got their hands on the inheritance. While playing in their new house a few young hobbits come across a golden ring with strange writing on it."

Your characters are those young hobbits. And go! I think that would be a hell of a lot more fun than playing as a cleaning detail for the cannon characters.

Yeah, the "what if" game. Sounds fun. Same for Star Wars: "what of there was no Luke Skywalker?"

[Daztur]

Originally Posted by scourger

Yeah, the "what if" game. Sounds fun. Same for Star Wars: "what of there was no Luke Skywalker?"

"Well, you've arrived at Tatooine but you don't see it anywhere, just an asteroid field that isn't on any of the charts. There also seems to be something that looks like a small moon. No, nothing interesting has happened to Alderan recently. Why do you ask?"

[WizarDru]

Originally Posted by billd91

Wow. You just can't see the name Saul Zaentz anywhere without it having negative connotations these days.

Was there a time when you didn't? He's produced some great movies, but few people attribute their success to him. Ask John Fogarty exactly how much he like Saul Zaentz.

[billd91]

Originally Posted by WizarDru

Ask John Fogarty exactly how much he like Saul Zaentz.

That is, in fact, one of the very things I was thinking about when I posted.

[WizarDru]

Originally Posted by darjr

The pig snouted orc came from TSR trying to get out from under? From claiming that it was an Irish term for pig? Not a word coined by Tolkien?

Is this true?

For the record, Tolkien didn't coin the term orc. He made it mainstream, but he took it from mythology, right along with goblin, ogre and others. There is similar word in Celtic that does mean 'young pig', so there is plenty of wiggle room in the whole discussion.

Discussion here. On a related note that Orcus also had historical mythical origins.

[CharlesRyan]

Originally Posted by JohnRTroy

I'd have more respect for this article if I felt the guy didn't have his own prejudices. Since he's a die-hard Tolkien fan, he's very dismissive of other opinions, particular Gygax's. (The "brain addled by drugs" comment was pretty damn unfair).

John isn't just some Tolkien fan--he's one of the world's leading Tolkien scholars. (Here's one of his recent contributions to the field.) He was also a TSR and WotC employee for a long time. While it doesn't make him infallible, he speaks as a true insider both on the Tolkien front and the TSR front.

[JohnRTroy]

The "Gygax on cocaine" rumor was started at TSR by a certain individual, and was once spread to usenet by another who worked at TSR. It was the only time I saw Gary's lawyers threaten a libel suit against them. I don't want to identify the individuals who stated it, because one apologized and the other (which the other guy got it from) patching things up and resumed his friendship with Gary. I assume Mr. Ratcliffe got it from conversations at time, and he's not speaking from experience because he joined TSR 6 years after EGG left. (And I think it was just a cheap shot by the author--otherwise why even mention it now, it just seems like an ad hominem, he could have stuck with the second and third points without mentioning the first).

I agree he's well-knowledged, but I still have a problem with a few statements like this.

First, there's the simple fact that Tolkien's innovations are so great that they have, ironically, come to be considered "generic". In fact, they only appear that way because the genre of Modern Fantasy is something Tolkien himself largely created: he is the exemplar that defines the category. The very idea of a player character party—a group of diverse individuals of differing races with differing talents and specialties who set off on an adventure together—is a uniquely Tolkien innovation, unprecedented in earlier fantasy, where we either have a hero, or a hero & a sidekick.

Saying JRRT innovations are "so great" ignores the other great Fantasy authors, and you should also count Science Fiction among them, since the genres are tied at the hip. If we count pulps and comic books, the "differing races and different specialties" could have been found since the Golden Age of Science Fiction and a comic book team like the JLA or Fantastic Four.

I mean, some of his stuff is spot on. But as people would (rightly) accuse me of an EGG bias, so this author would likely see Tolkien as being more important than other influences.

And I agree with EGG's essays about how Middle Earth would be weaker for an RPG than other settings. As rich as JRRT created his world mythology, and as successful as ICE was with their license, as correctly stated above there are limits to what can be done with it, compared to those D&D campaign settings that have a lot more factions, countries, and plot hooks. JRRT wasn't trying to create a shared world or anything like that.

[Faraer]

I'd love to see a ruleset that really fits Middle-earth -- something more freeform than the Rolemaster-derived MERP and the d20like Coda system. HeroQuest would work well.

I think the idea that Gary substantially derived D&D from Tolkien is a popular assumption that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. You could argue that he downplayed Tolkien's role somewhat, but dismissing his accounts as lies or delusions is outrageous.

[RFisher]

Originally Posted by Faraer

I'd love to see a ruleset that really fits Middle-earth -- something more freeform than the Rolemaster-derived MERP and the d20like Coda system. HeroQuest would work well.

I’ve heard good things about Legends of Middle-earth but haven’t gotten around to investigating it further.