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Okay... enough is enough. Encumberance rules are fine and good but I think even more needed are rules for "Bulk". IMG one of my players is running a shooty elven ranger and is walking around with 20 quivers of arrows. How on earth does someone run around with all of the usual adventuring gear, including backpack & bedroll, and have the ability to carry 20 quivers? It is like asking someone who can lift 200 lbs to carry around 200 one-pound-pillows. It is impossible... not from a strength perspective but from the perspective that they just don't have enough surface area on their body to carry 200 pillows no matter how much they weigh. I've offered my player a magical quiver that refills after each extended rest on the condition that he ditch the idea of carrying around a crazy number of arrows.
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"There is no charge for AWESOMENESS!" - Po the Dragon Warrior
RQ2 had the best encumbrance rules I've ever seen.
Items were given an 'encumbrance' value which encompassed the weight and the unwieldiness of the object in one figure. Most 1handed things were Enc 1, most two handed things were Enc 2.
Your maximum encumbrance was average of Str+Siz (you could just use flat Str in D&D).
So an elven ranger with Str 13 might have leather armour (3 Enc), longbow (2 Enc), quiver of 20 arrows (1 Enc), Longsword (1 Enc), Bedroll (2 Enc), Backpack with sundry stuff (3 Enc) for a total of 12 Encumbrance. Maybe give him room for a Handaxe (0.5 Enc) and a potion flask (0.5 Enc) or an extra quiver before he tips over into a heavy load.
Cheers
__________________ Plane Sailing
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"It makes as much sense as having Batman kill his parents and then go on to fight mutants from another dimension." - Rykion
I think the "Quiver of Holding" or something like that is the best idea. Ultimately, once you get a magic ranged weapon, you shouldn't have to deal with ammunition much ... the idea that every thrown (magic) weapon, every melee weapon, every spell ... all don't care about "ammo" makes ammunition based ranged weapons an exception. The tons of quivers is an attempt to avoid "running out of ammo". If the player doesn't feel the need to be overly prepared against running out of ammo (i.e. they know they'll be able to get more arrows before they run out) they won't have to go doing weird things just to avoid it.
Last edited by WalterKovacs; 2nd December 2008 at 02:46 PM..
Okay... enough is enough. Encumberance rules are fine and good but I think even more needed are rules for "Bulk". IMG one of my players is running a shooty elven ranger and is walking around with 20 quivers of arrows. How on earth does someone run around with all of the usual adventuring gear, including backpack & bedroll, and have the ability to carry 20 quivers? It is like asking someone who can lift 200 lbs to carry around 200 one-pound-pillows. It is impossible... not from a strength perspective but from the perspective that they just don't have enough surface area on their body to carry 200 pillows no matter how much they weigh. I've offered my player a magical quiver that refills after each extended rest on the condition that he ditch the idea of carrying around a crazy number of arrows.
I think you've already solved the problem, Jack.
FWIW, the system that Plane_Sailing mentions above sounds pretty intuitive, and I wish to learn more!
RQ2 had the best encumbrance rules I've ever seen.
Items were given an 'encumbrance' value which encompassed the weight and the unwieldiness of the object in one figure. Most 1handed things were Enc 1, most two handed things were Enc 2.
Your maximum encumbrance was average of Str+Siz (you could just use flat Str in D&D).
So an elven ranger with Str 13 might have leather armour (3 Enc), longbow (2 Enc), quiver of 20 arrows (1 Enc), Longsword (1 Enc), Bedroll (2 Enc), Backpack with sundry stuff (3 Enc) for a total of 12 Encumbrance. Maybe give him room for a Handaxe (0.5 Enc) and a potion flask (0.5 Enc) or an extra quiver before he tips over into a heavy load.
Cheers
Ooh, I like this. It even offers a mechanic for backpacks, belt pouches, and the like; a backpack might be 3 Enc but have room for 5 Enc inside.
__________________ Have you ever known a person who always behaved exactly the way you expected? Real people don't stay in character.
Even as a DM I hate tracking ammunition, encumbrance, and other misc boring accounting. I'd just say "You have enough ammunition, until I tell you how many you have left and you will track that number."
This way, the only time one has to worry about ammo is when it is pertinent to the situation, such as the party being stranded, lost for days, or otherwise in dire straits.
This reminds me of an old pewter miniature I used to see in hobby stores. It was a guy, hunched over with so much gear it looked like he had a house on his back. The overall effect looked like the peons who followed King Arthur and the knights around in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. The miniature was called: "The Adventurer".
Look at the Magic Item slots and use that for reference. It pretty much covers the Bulk issue you describe. Have players assign their equipment to slots, and create a few extra ones if necessary.
This reminds me of an old pewter miniature I used to see in hobby stores. It was a guy, hunched over with so much gear it looked like he had a house on his back. The overall effect looked like the peons who followed King Arthur and the knights around in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. The miniature was called: "The Adventurer".
Maybe the OP's player should just hire someone to haul all his equipment for him, perhaps someone like this 'adventurer,' heh! Dragging this NPC around could lead to all sorts of fun for the DM.
IMG one of my players is running a shooty elven ranger and is walking around with 20 quivers of arrows.
In all seriousness and I don't mean to be a smart@$$ but....just say no. If the player won't take your word as GM as final then you've got other problems. At least as I see it.
I have always wondered about the "bulk" factor though - I find that (to no real surprise) the people I've never had to worry about getting out of hand with that tend to have backpacking or military experience. Go figure.....
__________________ I am a naughty lovecraftian goddess!
One of the main functions of 4E was to get rid of all of those extraneous rules situations that just clutter and take up space in a rulebook, and put the power back into the DMs hands. So there's no point in complaining that there are no rules for encumberance... you either should just use your DM's prerogative to make a ruling, or come here and ask if anyone has some encumberance rules that they'd be willing to share.
D&D encumbrance is (or was) supposed to include bulk in the numbers. 1E DMG p. 225:
Quote:
Many people looking at the table will say, "But a scroll doesn't weigh two pounds!" The encumbrance figure should not be taken as the weight of the object - it is the combined weight and relative bulkiness of the item. These factors together will determine how much a figure can carry.
__________________ ADVANCED DUNGEONS &DRAGONS is first and foremost a game for the fun and enjoyment of those who seek to use imagination and creativity. This is not to say that where it does not interfere with the flow of the game that the highest degree of realism hasn‘t been attempted, but neither is a serious approach to play discouraged. (1E DMG p. 9)
This isn't an edition rant but 3E got so many players used to the idea that there is a rule for everything that they take a dim view of "Rule 0". When I brought it up to my player he even told me a story about a player in a game that had a dwarf who carried an anvil and many other ridiculous items around simply because he had the strength to do it. There was no way he could physically have carried everything but he had such a ridiculous strength that he could lift an equivalent weight.
I don't really have a problem with the character having an almost unlimited supply of arrows. His character concept is an Archer... it is what his character is built around. Limiting him would be like taking a Fighter's only weapon away. I just want some consideration given to "reality".
__________________
"There is no charge for AWESOMENESS!" - Po the Dragon Warrior
FWIW, the system that Plane_Sailing mentions above sounds pretty intuitive, and I wish to learn more!
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It is such a simple thing that it is pretty easy to eyeball for most things, with armour typically being one of the bulkier/heavier items. Essentially
Can you hold two in one hand easily? Enc = 0.5
Can you hold one in one hand easily? Enc = 1
Do you need two hands to hold it easily/wield it? Enc = 2
Set a suitable range for armour (no books handy at the moment), Str requirements for armour feats would probably give helpful guidelines for ensuring you don't set things too high).
Cheers
__________________ Plane Sailing
(Enworld Admin)
If you need to email me click here
"It makes as much sense as having Batman kill his parents and then go on to fight mutants from another dimension." - Rykion
This isn't an edition rant but 3E got so many players used to the idea that there is a rule for everything that they take a dim view of "Rule 0". When I brought it up to my player he even told me a story about a player in a game that had a dwarf who carried an anvil and many other ridiculous items around simply because he had the strength to do it. There was no way he could physically have carried everything but he had such a ridiculous strength that he could lift an equivalent weight.
I don't really have a problem with the character having an almost unlimited supply of arrows. His character concept is an Archer... it is what his character is built around. Limiting him would be like taking a Fighter's only weapon away. I just want some consideration given to "reality".
As an archer give him some ability (maybe attach it to nature or dungeoneering) to make his own arrows. Voila, as long as he spends a little time each day (probably when he's on watch during an extended rest) he's able to resupply.
As some old time Gencon goers might tell you, there used to be a seminar about encumbrance where those giving the seminar would pick someone in fairly good shape from the audience and then outfit them for adventuring, beginning with the regular weighted stuff like armor and weapons and backpack, then adding waterskins, 50' of rope, rations, iron spikes, ten foot pole, etc. until the participant virtually collapsed under the bulk and weight of the gear.
Perhaps you could do a similar demonstration using some equivalent items? Bundles of sticks wrapped in cardboard?
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