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Why don't they make Magic Items like they used to?
I was looking through my AD&D books tonight and noticed how versatile and multi-functional so many of the magic items were.
They were powerful, and they were odd, and fascinating, and most important of all a lot of them could do all kinds of things.
By comparison so many of the magic items of more recent editions are bland, plain, uninspired, and uninspiring. It's like suing a piece of technology from the eighties or something. The items are overly specialized, technical, usually limited to one specific function, top-heavy in design and capabilities. A drag to own and use and usually good only for specific encounter types.
Older magic items were magical. They had so many functions they seemed like a modern mini-computer/cell phone/PDA/wristwatch/GPS/tricorder all in one. Impressive and extremely useful. Versatile. Fluid. A joy to own and use, employable in a wide range of circumstances. They were the Renaissance Men of Miracles, the Polymaths of Magic. And in addition most were mysterious. You had to figure em out as you went along. They could always have extra, hidden potential that you'd never know about til you screwed around with just the right thing and accidentally tripped some concealed latch. And you had Artifacts, and Incredible Devices, and Relics, with strange legends and ancient lore surrounding them. They weren't just treasure types, they were items of real magic.
We need to get back to that in modern fantasy games.
It made fantasy gaming fun instead of a technical exercise in weaponry calibres and target types.
Magic should have some, "Boy, now you're really gonna see something!" to it, instead of "how many rounds ya got in that wand and what is the total count of damage points inflicted by it? I'm trying to calculate exactly how long this combat will last."
Where has all the magic gone?
It's gone to hell with the idea that magic is about power shots and ammo counts rather than about mystery and wonder.
Somebody needs to dig some real magic up out of the grave and see if they can put a resurrect on it.
Agreed. But I think it is all in the fluff; the responsibility rests with the DM. A +1 short sword isn't half as cool as something with the background and style of Sting.
__________________ ENworld OAF (Old-school Admirer of 4th edition)
Not every person who picks up the game wants Mystery and Wonder. And it is easier for a DM who wants it to put it back than it is for a DM who doesn't to remove it.
Magic items in D&D have always run the gamut from basic tools such as potions of healing and straightforward +n weapons and armor to complex, mysterious and powerful artifacts.
I would venture to say that the significant majority of magic items in any edition of D&D would be of the basic tool variety, with perhaps one additional, special function.
Like almost everything else, there is an element of diminishing returns when it comes to complexity and mystery in magic items. When a player has only one or two complex, mysterious items, they feel special. When every item that he possesses has multiple, hidden functions, they start to feel ordinary.
4e seems to have made a clearer distinction between magic items that are basic tools, and magic items that are clearly meant to be complex and mysterious. The former are the magic items that you find in the PH and AV (although you will find a few relatively complex and multifunctional items there, too). The latter are the artifacts in the DMG and sourcebooks such as Draconomicon.
Agreed. But I think it is all in the fluff; the responsibility rests with the DM. A +1 short sword isn't half as cool as something with the background and style of Sting.
This is true.
However, considering all the magical items the system assumes the PCs will receive in 2 levels time, it's just a monumental task to make every one of them seem mystical and important.
However, considering all the magical items the system assumes the PCs will receive in 2 levels time, it's just a monumental task to make every one of them seem mystical and important.
When every magic item is mystical and important, none of them are.
Somebody needs to dig some real magic up out of the grave and see if they can put a resurrect on it.
Okay! Here's a +1 Sword from my 1st edition game! And my wand of fireballs that does 6d6 and has 12 charges left!
Oh, that's not what you meant.
Lots of interesting metaphor and hyperbole in your rant, but do you really support it? Even if you did give some examples, it's incredibly easy to pull highly selective examples to either prove or disprove your argument.
Merely having multiple functions doesn't make an item more "magical". In fact, if you're trying to invoke items as depicted in fiction, most items have only a single utility.
I like that in 4E there are no more plain +1 items - every sword, every shield has at least an added power as well as other possible properties. Wands and Staffs are no longer an exercise in counting charges. These are good changes, in my opinion, making these things become more magical than just "it's... uh... sharper. Magically sharper." or ammo counts, as you say. Those are the hallmarks of most items in earlier editions.
I look in the latest DMG and still see artifacts. I notice in the Dec preview article on the Wizards site a magical tome that lets you alter the destination of planar portals, and the historied Von Zarovich Family Sword, with multiple properties and even a few drawbacks.
Are magical items different in this edition than previous one? Sure, for a couple of reasons. First, there is a different expectation regarding how much power the sum total of a character's items will give him. Having multiple powers in a single item, like, say, 1st Ed.'s Rings of Elemental Command, works against this expectation.
Second, in previous editions there was a tendency for a character to become defined by his magical items rather than their own abilities, particularly for some classes. So this time the spotlight has been taken off of magical items somewhat, and focused more on the classes themselves. Which is as it should be, I believe.
There are still are cool items out there. Just because they aren't multi-function tricorders any more doesn't make them any less magical.
__________________ "Sometimes we buy books because we think we're buying the time to read them." - Warren Zevon
The most mystical, magical game I've played in has been Sorcerer.
That game is as basic as it gets; you only have 5 stats.
What's important in that game is colour, how things function in the game fiction. For example, my half-demon's Stamina is defined as "Unnatural Means" - he can handle things because he's a half-demon, he bathes in fire, eats coals, etc. That's all colour, and doesn't affect his Stamina score of 5.
D&D is a very different game. There are a lot more numbers to deal with. And then there's the whole economy of actions going on.
However, I think that 4e could be awesome as it deals with magical effects. The Wizard in my game has made awesome use of Mage Hand, dealing good damage with it - equal to an encounter power at times. It's because of the ecnomy of actions and the fact that the guidelines for doing whatever you want are really clear.
Magic items - like an Immovable Rod - could have really cool effects given player creativity. Let's say that you grab the Immovable Rod with a Minor action and place it in an adjacent square. Suddenly that square becomes Difficult Terrain! Your opponent can no longer shift there, and that might be exactly what you want.
To sum up, I think that strange, colourful effects without any mechanics can have an important role to play in 4e.
__________________ "If people bring so much courage to this world the world has to kill them to break them, so of course it kills them. The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry."
-- Ernest Hemingway, "A Farewell to Arms" Burning Empires:Boldaq Keep on the Shadowfell
I think this problem started rearing it's head most in third edition and past. It might be just nostalgia, but I remember magic items being more awesome in 2e.
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
Why don't they make Magic Items like they used to?
It was abstracted away.
Common arc to the evolution of games: Original creators interested in both flavor and mechanics together, looking for mechanics that evoke a certain atmosphere. Later designers get more focused on the numbers and mechanics that play on those numbers.
IMO it's easier to strip out flavor than add it back in to empty mechanics. But I'm not part of 4E's market or design camp.
__________________ ADVANCED DUNGEONS &DRAGONS is first and foremost a game for the fun and enjoyment of those who seek to use imagination and creativity. This is not to say that where it does not interfere with the flow of the game that the highest degree of realism hasn‘t been attempted, but neither is a serious approach to play discouraged. (1E DMG p. 9)
Not every person who picks up the game wants Mystery and Wonder. And it is easier for a DM who wants it to put it back than it is for a DM who doesn't to remove it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta
IMO it's easier to strip out flavor than add it back in to empty mechanics. But I'm not part of 4E's market or design camp.
I think I agree with Delta on this one. As for people not wanting mystery and wonder in their game isn't it just easier for them to ignore the fluff and concentrate on the crunch? Mystery and wonder to me is a big feature of a game though.
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__________________ Want to see through my crystal ball and what's in store for 5E? Take a glance at my Dreams of 5th Edition
He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder. Tad Williams
I agree with Jack7, for the most part. It has been my observation that magical items have become very "blah." Most of them have lost versatility and flavor in exchange for steady mechanics. I really wish the creators would have taken a bit more time and developed magic items that contained solid mechanics as well as flavor.
I try to create mystery with the magic items my character own, with limited success. I rarely mention the exact nature of the item, if asked. Instead, I try to give the items mystical sounding names, and I work to detail the items history.
__________________ Enemies are the price of Honor. ~Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander, Wizard of the First Order
Fear. Fear attracts the fearful. The strong. The weak. The innocent. The corrupt. Fear. Fear is my ally. ~Darth Maul
No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try. ~Yoda
I don't want the Tyranny of Fun to become one of PF RPG's design principles. That's 4e's province, and I'd happily leave it that way.
I was looking through my AD&D books tonight and noticed how versatile and multi-functional so many of the magic items were.
They were powerful, and they were odd, and fascinating, and most important of all a lot of them could do all kinds of things.
And are often broken balance wise, 4E cares more about balance than previous editions IMO
Quote:
Where has all the magic gone?
here
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireLance
4e seems to have made a clearer distinction between magic items that are basic tools, and magic items that are clearly meant to be complex and mysterious. The former are the magic items that you find in the PH and AV (although you will find a few relatively complex and multifunctional items there, too). The latter are the artifacts in the DMG and sourcebooks such as Draconomicon.
I think this problem started rearing it's head most in third edition and past. It might be just nostalgia, but I remember magic items being more awesome in 2e.
I remember 2e to be a good game. Nostalgia is a bitch...
Seriously. I agree 100%. But maybe it is because our characters became more able, more powerful with 3e and 4e. I mean, as a fighter, all you could do in 2e was hit and be hit, at least if you didn't go beg your DM to "buy your idea". With the later editions, you have so many more options, on your sheet/by the rules.
Also, some stuff was sacrifized on the altar of balance.
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I think the change from 2e to 3e brought about a lot of thus. I think it was a sacrifice under the alter of everything being bound under rules and the idea of simply using fluff was beheaded. Everything had some mechanic or rule behind it, and as such the more imaginative magical items that wouldn't fit neatly into mechanics began to disappear.
Okay! Here's a +1 Sword from my 1st edition game! And my wand of fireballs that does 6d6 and has 12 charges left!
Nice try. The wand of fire from 1e could do burning hands, fireball, pyrotechnics, and wall of fire. Much more fun than any old wand of fireballs. A lot of 1e stuff was way more versatile than later editions.
Totally agree. I don't even need to open my 1E DMG to come up with examples. Apparatus of Kwalish? Ring of Shooting Stars, anyone? I looked through the magic item section of 4E and found it incredibly dull, even worse than the Monster Manual.
And whoever said that its easier to put this stuff in than take it out is dead wrong. My 1E DMG has hundreds of cool magic items. It would take me an awfully long time to come up with even a fraction of that number myself. Sure I could do it, but I've kind of come to expect that the game should provide those for me.
__________________ "Enough screwing around. It's time to kill."
Where has all the magic gone?
It's gone to hell with the idea that magic is about power shots and ammo counts rather than about mystery and wonder.
Well, that and standardization. I noticed this most clearly with the "Rod of Wonder" in 3E. Why did it go from "Wand of Wonder" in AD&D to "Rod of Wonder" in 3E? Because in 3E, Rods can be used by everybody but all wands can only be used by Wizards. In other words... the Design Cops got mad at the Wand of Wonder for breaking the rules.
Hello... way to miss the point! The Wand of Wonder was all about breaking the rules. Yeah, it's a wand that can be used by a Fighter. So what? It's also a wand that can shoot a rhinoceros at your foe. It doesn't play well with others. What part of "This wand shoots rhinoceroses" suggests that it should play well with others?
Really, though, throughout 3E and 4E I see a continual striving for standardization, rationalization and a smooth mechanistic balance. Hence the tirelessly tiring treatment of magic items as nothing more than pieces of sparkly technology. They all work the same, they all follow the same rules, they contain no surprises and behave exactly as you would expect... The End.
Yet another reason that I like the kooky old products such as OD&D and AD&D. In OD&D, Elves choose at the beginning of the adventure whether they will play as a Fighting Man or a Magic-User for that adventure. They switch classes from adventure to adventure. "But that doesn't make any sense!" you cry. You're right... they're creepy fae folk that live lives ultimately beyond the ken of mortal man. Of course they're weirdos.
Really, you can keep your Fordist Fantasy. And I'll keep my schizo-elfs riding around in apparatuses of Kwalish shooting rhinoceroses at the bullywug hordes.
__________________ "I despise all weavers of the black arts. Speaking of which, can you pass the gravy?"
A clever and imaginative DM (or GM) makes all the difference. Yes, regardless of game (or edition).
Of course, clever and imaginative players help a ton, as well.
Seriously, that's it. No more, no less.
I honestly wish I could still cling this facile outlook on gaming. Being clever and creative is all you need when the people you're trying to dazzle are guileless and inexperienced. A canny (or simply jaded) player will look beneath the candy coating to see whether there's something of substance.
Last edited by Felon; 12th December 2008 at 08:52 AM..
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