Forked Thread: Love the Game vs. Hate the Greedy Characters

[frankthedm]

When I clicked on Love the Game vs. Hate the Greed? I was hoping this was a poll about how D&D necessitates greedy characters since higher level abilities are bought with point buy in the thin disguise of Gold Pieces

Me too.

If a character decided to turn a gold peice haul into a gigantic celebratory feast{and other activities], buy a kingdom or just chuck their loot in the streets to the needy, they notably and directly power down themselves in the recent editions of the D&D system.

Indeed this set up also makes playing characters with different levels of greed detrimental to character balance. A rogue who takes a bit of extra treasure for himself is quite possibly stealing away a point of AC or Attack Bonus from another PC. An ungreedy PC can easilty wind up behind the power curve unless the rest of the party take steps to rectify the situation.

While subsystems and houserules can do away with this problem, is this issue's presence in the base system a positive or negative thing?

 

[Vorput]

I don't like it. People's 'powers' are rarely connected to how much money they have (though this does often translate into how much cool stuff they have).

Sadly, I don't think there's another feasible way to do it. Maybe something like you much be this powerful to make this sword do this. I.e. once you hit level 5, you can make your weapons cooler- but don't need to buy new weapons (and this goes for all gear).

Dunno how that would work in play though... and seems rather artificial.

 

[Truename]

...D&D necessitates greedy characters since higher level abilities are bought with point buy in the thin disguise of Gold Pieces.

Assuming we're talking about 4e, I don't agree with the premise. If the DM uses the standard treasure charts, the gold piece haul per level is either:

* one level+0 item (for the one character that didn't get an item that level)
* one level-5 item per character

or

* two level-5 items per character

or

* one level+0 item
* "walking around money" for each character

Personally, I think the game is balanced for the last option.

Just for fun, I took a look at how the "walking around money" option works out per level, assuming five characters, equal division of the wealth, and spending all your cash every level...

Level 1: 72 gold
Level 5: 200 gold
Level 10: 1000 gold

That actually feels about right to me, at least for the heroic tier. Level 1 characters blow it all in a few nights of debauchery, and level 10 characters have some real influence, but still can't out-bribe the rich merchants...

 

[El Mahdi]

I voted bad because, well...it is bad, but I've never had it be a problem in any games I've played or run.

We didn't need to houserule any of it out, just simply ignored this concept. Never seemed to be a problem.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

I agree

It is a problem because it clashes with the assumptions of the genre.

What if you brought back the old 1E '1GP = 1XP' rule, but only for gold given away or frittered away on things that didn't help you adventure?

Ken

 

[Obryn]

Hi, I'm the lone dissenting voice, but I think I need to clarify. I have a very behaviorist view of gaming, and think reward mechanisms very much drive play-styles.

For 3e/4e, I agree, the magic item point buy is kinda iffy and gets old after a while.

However, I have learned to embrace and love 1e's 1gp = 1xp system. I know, it was always the punching bag of 1e's XP system, and was largely removed in 2e (except for thieves), but I have learned to appreciate it - for certain styles of games.

Basically, for 3e and 4e, characters have two separate motivations: XP to level up, and GP to get cool stuff. Both are basically the acquisition of power, but the two don't mingle. It doesn't do you much good not to have both... So for 3e/4e, you want to both kill things and take their stuff. (Yes, I know this is a gross simplification.)

In 1e, those goals are combined. You're assumed to be an adventurer, and your primary goal is the acquisition of wealth. Combat XP is relatively paltry and high-risk. Treasure XP is really where it's at.

By weighting treasure XP more than combat XP, the reward system encourages clever ways to bilk foes out of their stuff. Why risk yourself against that dragon, if you can sneak into their lair, grab a few items, and live to steal another day? You still might kill things and take their stuff, but it's completely viable to simply take their stuff and forego killing them entirely. Risk avoidance is not only viable; it's recommended. Since you don't generally buy magic items in 1e, this means PCs can comfortably blow thousands of GP on ale & whores without screwing themselves out of another +1 on their longsword.

YMMV and all.

-O

 

[Victim]

I can't say that I'm terribly fond of it. Not just for the behavior it emphasizes, but it's also a very complex system. Even in 4e, equiping a high level character can easily be the most time consuming part of making the character (thanks AV ).

It's an annoyingly fiddly system, especially because of the way it ties back into other elements of character creation (Wintertouched/Lasting Frost, for instance). And not playing the item selection game can lead to sigficantly weaker characters.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Hi, I'm the lone dissenting voice, but I think I need to clarify. I have a very behaviorist view of gaming, and think reward mechanisms very much drive play-styles.

For 3e/4e, I agree, the magic item point buy is kinda iffy and gets old after a while.

However, I have learned to embrace and love 1e's 1gp = 1xp system. I know, it was always the punching bag of 1e's XP system, and was largely removed in 2e (except for thieves), but I have learned to appreciate it - for certain styles of games.

Basically, for 3e and 4e, characters have two separate motivations: XP to level up, and GP to get cool stuff. Both are basically the acquisition of power, but the two don't mingle. It doesn't do you much good not to have both... So for 3e/4e, you want to both kill things and take their stuff. (Yes, I know this is a gross simplification.)

In 1e, those goals are combined. You're assumed to be an adventurer, and your primary goal is the acquisition of wealth. Combat XP is relatively paltry and high-risk. Treasure XP is really where it's at.

By weighting treasure XP more than combat XP, the reward system encourages clever ways to bilk foes out of their stuff. Why risk yourself against that dragon, if you can sneak into their lair, grab a few items, and live to steal another day? You still might kill things and take their stuff, but it's completely viable to simply take their stuff and forego killing them entirely. Risk avoidance is not only viable; it's recommended. Since you don't generally buy magic items in 1e, this means PCs can comfortably blow thousands of GP on ale & whores without screwing themselves out of another +1 on their longsword.

YMMV and all.

-O

That was the best defense of the 1E xp system that I have ever heard. Congrats.

 

[S'mon]

I'm fine with XP-for-gold, if it's a mercenary campaign.

Buying powers with gp creates huge problems. Much better that the PCs find or are given the powerful magic items.

 

[catsclaw227]

i've never been a "magic item shop" DM, though I like the idea of treasure parcels and wish lists. Yes, verisimilitude is lost a little, but if my PCs have specific likes, they will get some of the magic items they want and it won't force them to collect, sell, and buy residuum or magic items directly. If they want to disenchant and create, they can, but I make residuum to have temporary and declining efficacy. i.e., it's got a half-life. IMC, residuum is not really a wealth item. You must create a new item when you get your magic dust from another item.

For example, with my upcoming Scales of War campaign, there is a suggested parcel set, including a number of magic items. I told the players, in advance, to tell me what level 1-3 items they would be interested in, and they might get one or two, depending upon the parcels available. The rest will be determined by me, as items pertinent to the adventure.

I don't like the idea of buying items, instead questing for them. I read an essay once about how to make magic feel rare, yet still meet the scaling needs of the party and give magic back some of the... well... magic. I wish I knew where to find it again....

I didn't vote because I am sorta in the middle on this, but more for the reasons given above.