Anyone ever play or DM a game with this style? How did it work out?

[joethelawyer]

What I am envisioning is a city setting, characters who were thieves or at least part thieves, as opposed to "rogues." In other words, people who steal. People who take want they want from life, not because they think they "deserve it," or for any other weak moral justification. They simply do it because thats what they do, and they don't try to justify ii or make excuses.

People who think their city is the center of it all, so why ever leave. Characters who can get to 30th level and never have killed anything non-human.

When they killed its usually because something went wrong, but they don't lose too much sleep over it. The choice to not kill is mostly rational, in that killing brings more attention to yourself, so why do it?

The only moral imperative that should be imposed on others is live and let live...but get as much stuff to further your own enjoyment as you can along the way. Besides, its more fun to outsmart someone, take their stuff, and enjoy the thought of them boiling over in rage and frustration while sitting in the bar with 3 whores vying for your attention (and money), then to crudely kill them and take their stuff.

Men out for themselves, stealing, living it up, gambling, whoring, drinking and feasting, blowing a king's ransom in a week because they want the good time it gives. Living on the streets the week after, scrounging for food, and searching for the next score that will let them live like kings for a week again.

Uncaring about missions, quests, the greater good, gods, or anyone else's agenda other than their own. There may be greater things and world shaping events, battles of good and evil, law and chaos going on, but unless it affects the price of beer and the chances of landing that busty serving wench, who cares?

Not wanting to rule empires, or dominate or kill and slay others. Not looking for power over anyone or anything other than their own lives.

No moral ambiguities. They are the center of the universe, and everything exists for them to use to enjoy their lives to the fullest, and to oversaturate every sense. Hedonists, who fight and steal to get what they want to live that lifestyle.

No Robinhood crap, no helping the kitten get down from the tree. No going on a mission from the king, or against the king. No bravery that isn't merely a show to impress the serving wench.

Men who fight dirty, lie and cheat to get what they want. Lovers of life, women, wine and song.

No plans other than the next heist and how to blow the money afterwards. No fears other than of having to live life by someone else's rules. No desires that can't be satiated by brains, balls, and a bit of luck.

The jobs and heists don't build to some grand campaign. There is no greater purpose. The meaning of life is to live it by enjoying it to its fullest. They have the bright sparkle of life in their eyes, and laugh at the whims of fate and fortune, undaunted by defeat.

Anyone ever try something like his? How did it go?

 

[Jack7]

Anyone ever try something like his? How did it go?

You mean like a Conan RPG?

No, seriously, that's what thieves in the game used to be. Or at least the background of most of them.

This is my opinion and experience. I never played in such a game, per se, where everyone was a thief or cut-throat, but because of my personal background I often included places like this in my games, when I was the milieu designer and DM. Not whole cities but at least whole districts given over to criminal activity. Sex slavery, kidnapping rings, hostage taking, fencing rings, burglary networks, murder for hire, smuggling of various kinds, gang and merchant warfare, caravan interception and ambush, extortion, political corruption, spies and insurrectionists, protection rackets, tactical terrorism, and so forth and so on.

To tell you the truth, when it came to urban adventures, these were often the absolute most dangerous areas a party or person could enter. As, if not more dangerous, than most dungeons. Several times characters fell victim to theft, hostage taking, gang warfare, assassination. They were extremely fun for me to DM, extremely violent and dangerous places for the characters to visit, but not always in the way that seemed most apparent. And you're right, real criminals don't draw attention to themselves unless they feel absolutely secure about their behavior and the circumstances. Even in bad neighborhoods old habits are hard to break. It's a lot easier to slit throats and bury bodies than brag to the wrong fella while drunk and try to explain later hung from a meat-hook why you killed the made-man's nephew. My players had a saying about one area in one city in particular. "Let's get the hell outta Jehiecal!" They didn't like going there. They knew what it meant. And they were pretty tough in a standing fight. Course around professional killers and thieves you don't get standing up fights. Not from somebody who knows that they are doing anyway. You get stabbed in your sleep.

All I can really say is that if such places are done right then they operate pretty much like they do in real life, it's a fascinating kind of hell-hole to visit, or to work a case in, but you really wouldn't wanna live there for very long. And most don't.

 

[joethelawyer]

All I can really say is that if such places are done right then they operate pretty much like they do in real life, it's a fascinating kind of hell-hole to visit, or to work a case in, but you really wouldn't wanna live there for very long. And most don't.

See I don't mean setting at all. Setting is irrelevant, mostly. I'm focused on the personality of the characters I escribed. Men like I described can ply their trade and live the good life be in any city, anywhere. Good bad or in-between.

I don't mean a world of corruption, mobsters, or evil. What you're talking about is exactly the type of place the characters I described would avoid if they had a choice, because organized crime holds to much power, and their chaotic unorganized criminal lifestyle is a threat to that power. And evil criminals would not hesitate to kill those who are a threat to their power, and would stop at nothing to do so.

What you described with:

Sex slavery, kidnapping rings, hostage taking, fencing rings, burglary networks, murder for hire, smuggling of various kinds, gang and merchant warfare, caravan interception and ambush, extortion, political corruption, spies and insurrectionists, protection rackets, tactical terrorism,

is way way to organized an approach for the characters I described, and much of it evil in nature, and an attempt to seek and gain power over others. You're describing a thieves world, I'm describing thieves who live in the world and take what they want from it. I am not looking to run a band of criminals out for power, I am looking to run a band of Chaotic Neutral hedonist thieves, out for their own enjoyment of life.

Ever play a game with characters like that?

 

[Mark]

I ran a one-shot at a gameday a few years ago with all PC thieves. Joe and Suzi from EXP played along with ejja1 from my current weekly group, and two others, IIRC. It's where Suzi picked up her nickname of Stabby McStabberson.

 

[Jack7]

I can tell ya this much about real life Joe, and you can decide if it helps ya or not.

There are petty criminals, and others types of criminals. Petty ones, who are usually far less dangerous, (though if you endanger some, and they are drunk or otherwise riled up then even they can be dangerous and violent at times) rarely make a big score or a king's ransom. They don't run in the right crowds, don't have the muscle, and don't know enough about what they are doing. They barely scrounge by, and often fall prey to other criminals. Or get used by them. So most of them would be out.

Criminals higher up the food chain tend to be opportunists. And if they really are hedonists, then sooner or later they will find themselves in a situation where things get out of hand. Because that's the way they live. You can't move in certain circles and attempt certain things like thievery or extortion or other things without one of two things eventually happening, you get caught and go to jail, or you kill to avoid it. And after the first kill it seems to get a lot easier for most of those guys.

Most criminals are thrill seekers who don't like regular day jobs, though some work them anyway, as cover for other activities. But sooner or later they will hit upon something big and then they'll have a choice to make. Go to jail, remain forever a petty criminal, or move up. Few move up in real criminal activity without pushing down someone else. No one makes a big score turning over bingo games. Just like street walkers aren't madams. And most ambitious criminals get very paranoid over time by doing their own scoring all of the time. If they are ambitious they set up a racket and work others. If they are petty they never go anywhere. If they are mid-level then either they will do their own killing out of necessity or they will be employed by others for "work."

So what you are describing very rarely happens. The gentleman bandit, the Conan snatch and grabber, and the "I got certain morals and no way I'm getting organized" hedonist doesn't really exist much, or last very long. He's dead, working for others, or in the joint. Now, that has nothing to do with a game. You can make a game anyway you like. But to me there would have to be a reason as to why things operate like that. You could write that into your setting and I've seen real people with the strangest motivations. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff. But it's very, very rare. Most of those types guys are bored thrill seekers, and because they are unorganized they get caught easy or killed easy. You don't steal then drink away all your take without attracting attention, especially in areas where more ambitious types are more than happy to scope out your operation for a few weeks, then swoop in and slit your throat. It's a lot easier to take from the sloppy and hedonistic independent operator than to risk a heavy job yourself.

Now there are also periphery operators, Guys like fences who shoulder with harder types, but do all they can to avoid direct ties. But they rarely do their own scoring, and when they do it's because they have already been pulled in to larger circles and bigger rackets by others.

I guess what I'm saying is that criminal activity works just like any other profession. Ambition means moving up and moving up means doing things you've never done before. And people without ambition stay below the horizon but then again they never make a big score either. If your guys are gonna last long operating like you describe then they are gonna have to be awfully good, meaning organized, constantly on the move, meaning they can't be tied down to the locale they are working (thought they could work outside their own city or area, if they could get info on targets elsewhere), or they are gonna need protection from so that owes them big or wants to cover them for some reason. But remember this, if your city is law and order except for certain districts then your guys will be under constant pressure from the authorities, especially if they ever score big. If your city is almost entirely lawless then that means that your guys are gonna be under constant pressure for other criminals who want what they got or can get. Meaning if your guys go around "drinking it up" then somebody is gonna notice and come looking to see what all the ruckus is, and what it means.

I can see a small group operating like you say, for awhile. But what happens when they get recognized on the make, or when someone threatens to turn them in, or someone shows up and says, "I've heard about you boys and would like to employ you, and your take will be big if you pull this off?" Do they say, "Sure, we're in, but... we don't generally kill, and we only work in our own way, and we don't bother with a plan. We're as free as the wind." Real criminal activity just doesn't work that way. It gets criminals killed quick, or they never go anywhere, or last long as criminals. A big score and sloppy, hedonistic behavior are really antithetical aims. If you want to hit the big time then you have to act like it. If you want to live to enjoy it, then you can't be sloppy, even after the fact.

They might could operate in that way if they were very, very good at disguise, covers, aliases, and kept really low profiles. But it's hard for me to imagine drink it ups flourishing in one spot for very long. There was a reason Conan was constantly on the move. You can't make a big splash in a pool without ripples coming back to ya.

 

[Wormwood]

I played Shadowrun for about 4 years. Pretty much everything you described.

Worked just fine, since the players and the GM all had the same play and genre expectations.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Yes, I have.

Lankhmar with house-ruled AD&D 1e was one. The first one, actually, and yeah, it was fun. Pretty much as you describe. I was the DM. It ended in death and, not surprisingly, dishonour.

 

[Hypersmurf]

No campaign, but I've run a couple of one-shots.

One was designed that way - the game was an urban heist caper, where every PC was a 7th level Gestalt Rogue. Sort of an Ocean's Eleven-style D&D game.

The other was a smaller game, and it wasn't intended to be a miniature Thieves' Guild - it just worked out that way in practise. Another urban game (set in the same city, in fact), the PCs were framed for a murder and set to investigate a mystery in exchange for their parole. They decided "Screw the establishment", and started misbehaving. They offed several of the mid-range criminal leaders and started setting up their own organisation...

-Hyp.

 

[diaglo]

yes. i've refereed a few sessions of party thieves doing some side jobs.

 

[Crothian]

We've done campaigns like that in Thieve's World.