Another Cease and Desist Letter: 4E Powercards

[Admiral Caine]

It was a paraphrase Jack, not a quote.

Jeez.. I am so shocked that you're actually trying to make an issue of this that I read your quote four times now. I actually for a moment thought I had made a mistake, and I apologized to you. Then I had to read it again and edit it back out. Amazing. Good job.

But you're splitting hairs. Really. I say potato, you say pot-tot-toe.

[Wimwick]

It's too bad that a fan site got shut down, especially when they are only trying to help the community.

While I respect WotC for enforcing their product and IP, I wonder how many copies of their Power Card book they will sell. I won't be buying it. I subscribe to DDI and get power cards included with the Character Builder. For that matter I get power cards for books that aren't even out yet. For me the digitial initiative is the way to go.

[the Jester]

Re: Copyright vs. Trademark: I know the difference, that's why I specified trademarks in my post above. Things like the logo were all over those cards (or so I hear).

Originally Posted by Imaro

No, it's much more likely that while, perhaps not aware of Ryan's specific site... WotC has been aware of the sets of power cards on the internet and...up to this point...chose not to do anything about them because they helped promote their product and they in turn had nothing to offer their customers. Personally I think this lax attitude up until now, probably led to people like Ryan thinking it was okay to create a website with the power text on them since there are already PDF's & MSE sets with them in it.

Right- WotC very well may have said, "Huh, this kid's got five power cards posted on his web site. That's cool- that will help promote the game, but it doesn't do it by posting wholesale chapters of the PH." Then, when they found someone who was posting wholesale chapters of the PH, they said, "WHOAH!! NOT COOL!!"

Just because they gave someone an inch doesn't mean that anyone else can get away with a mile.

I understand that it's "bad for the fans" if WotC defends its intellectual property. Heck, I wish all the awesome d&d gravy was free too. I'd never miss a supplement then! But, wait- how would the Rouse, mearls, Mr. Cordell and all the rest get paid?? Sometimes "bad for the fans" means the business keeps going.

[Xyxox]

Originally Posted by Imaro

You know I find it hilarious that WotC is always held up as a business when it suits it's fans, but the minute a detractor suggests they did something most businesses would in a situation... suddenly it's a conspiracy theory... or it's ridiculed... There have been numerous cards with the full text of powers distributed all over the internet.

IMO,as a company concerned with their IP and usage of it, it is more absurd to think WotC was oblivious or didn't notice any of the sets of power cards (with the full text) out there any earlier than January... I mean just the fact that they have multiple presences on this site alone, where links to tons of power cards (with full text) are listed means even the minutest effort would have garnered them this information.

No, it's much more likely that while, perhaps not aware of Ryan's specific site... WotC has been aware of the sets of power cards on the internet and...up to this point...chose not to do anything about them because they helped promote their product and they in turn had nothing to offer their customers. Personally I think this lax attitude up until now, probably led to people like Ryan thinking it was okay to create a website with the power text on them since there are already PDF's & MSE sets with them in it.

SIDE NOTE: As far as "common sense" here's a site that has been up forever for Exalted 2nd edition... on the site are the Charm Cards for Solar Exalted, Dragon-Blooded Exalts and Lunar Exalts. That's all the powers from 3 different books, along with great character sheets and rule cheat sheets... yet for years there have been no C&D's from WW for the site to take the cards down. I'm assuming, perhaps mistakenly, that WW recognizes sites like these help promote their game and cultivate the "hobby" aspect as well.

exalted sheets

What you suggest is not an activity any legitimate business would engage in as doing so would put their IP at risk.

I say this as an employee of a company that as the sole source of its revenue, produces IP. We, as a comapny, are aware our IP is pirated because all IP companies have their IP pirated. We do not know of specific sites, but when discovered, we ahve them shut down.\

So again, you are engaging in conspiracy theories.

[Shadowsong666]

Originally Posted by Admiral Caine

You can't.
This is all about money.

Thats really all its about.
If they could, they would disallow letting someone else read the books you purchased.

But well, we all have a social desire for sharing. So we all just spend some and get everything. Group hugs!

[jmucchiello]

Wow, am I out of the loop! Can someone point me at the discussion for the first site sent a C&D, I missed that discussion entirely?

I'm shocked it took until page 7 of this thread for someone to lament that WotC didn't put this guy on the payroll. That was my immediate reaction to the idea. Yeah, not really possible in a company with standard corporate structure but this site (which I never saw) sounds like it was a mean feat of software engineering.

[El Mahdi]

Originally Posted by the Jester

Re: Copyright vs. Trademark: I know the difference, that's why I specified trademarks in my post above. Things like the logo were all over those cards (or so I hear).

So you did.

[Beginning of the End]

Originally Posted by Admiral Caine

So, by extension of this position, you would agree that all Power Cards not made by WOTC (or made 100% entirely by the individual for their own sole personal use) is a violation WOTC's rights?

For personal use? No.

But if by "power card" you mean "a card that duplicates both the name of the power and the text describing the mechanics of that power" then, yeah, that's an open-and-shut copyright violation.

Attempts to rewrite the text describing the mechanics is a legally gray area, but is still going to get you whacked with a C&D because Wizards, like TSR before it, believes that there is a significant and protected non-mechanical creative expression inherent in most RPG mechanics. (You can't copyright mechanics. But you also can't mechanically describe a beholder without violating the copyright protecting the concept of a beholder.)

Are they right? Maybe. I'd even say probably. But there's no legal precedent.

And in any case, it's irrelevant in this case because, in this case, the text is being replicated. And that, as I say, is an open-and-shut copyright violation.

[Ourph]

Originally Posted by Treebore

Actually it would be. Depending. If you use a "character sheet" created by WOTC? Yes, it would be a violation, we only have permission "for personal use only", publishing it on the WWW with uncontrolled distribution is not "personal use only".

So don't do that.

Also, even if you create your own character sheet format, you still need to be sure not to use any terms WOTC has covered by copyright, otherwise you will still be in violation of copyright.

"Terms" (i.e. individual words or phrases like "Armor Class", "Reflex", "Healing Surge", "Hit and Run" or "Riposte Strike") aren't copyright protected and it's perfectly acceptable to post those to a public internet page as part of a character sheet. You shouldn't redistribute the entire text for each power verbatim, but listing the names isn't violating any copyrights.

[dm4hire]

The only problem is that D&D falls under game and therefore under the copyright laws for games you cannot copyright mechanics, only content built around it. Which is why just about every fantasy game out there has Dwarves, Elves, Halflings, Humans, and what not for races and classes such as fighter, ranger, barbarian, and so on despite being OGL or completely outside it. So your example of rephrasing is actually legal to some extent if it relates to mechanics which power cards actually are.

The C&D is totally related to the whole content being copied completely for more than just a few powers and from what has been mentioned also the use of other items that most likely were covered by Trademark. Trademark being a whole other ballgame as discussed.

[Elephant]

Huh. Someone likes 4e and puts up some nifty power cards to help make the game run more smoothly for people.

In response to this enthusiasm on the part of their customers, WOTC slaps 'em with a C&D, in effect saying "BAD fan! You're not allowed to add to the fun!"

Way to go, guys.

[Kit Cloudkicker]

Originally Posted by avin

I saw that coming from miles.

Wotc is going to sell their own power cards.

And make a mint doing it. This really effing annoys me.

[Dannager]

This post has been reworded by a moderator to be less insulting. Don't put words in peoples mouths. Thank you.

[Jack99]

Originally Posted by Admiral Caine

It was a paraphrase Jack, not a quote.

Jeez.. I am so shocked that you're actually trying to make an issue of this that I read your quote four times now. I actually for a moment thought I had made a mistake, and I apologized to you. Then I had to read it again and edit it back out. Amazing. Good job.

But you're splitting hairs. Really. I say potato, you say pot-tot-toe.

I am that good. No seriously, you might be right. It was late when I posted and it's been a long week. Re-reading it now, I have to agree that I might have been splitting hairs. Your rewrite of what I said was not that far from what I meant.

Cheers

[Imaro]

Originally Posted by Xyxox

What you suggest is not an activity any legitimate business would engage in as doing so would put their IP at risk.

I say this as an employee of a company that as the sole source of its revenue, produces IP. We, as a comapny, are aware our IP is pirated because all IP companies have their IP pirated. We do not know of specific sites, but when discovered, we ahve them shut down.

So again, you are engaging in conspiracy theories.

So even though, through a simple google search you can find tons of sites with power cards that contain full text and descriptions... In fact just browsing these forums turns up plenty... you honestly believe a company like WotC since 4e was released hasn't done this... even though they were aware of their core books being put up on torrent sites before the books were even released?

Yeah it's easy to throw that "conspiracy" word around when you want to discredit an argument but don't have anything substantial to back it up with except... anecdotal evidence that doesn't even relate directly to WotC. Yeah whatever, you've really revealed the "conspiracy" for what it is...