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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nymrohd
The OGL spoiled us all big time. I may sound harsh in saying this, but consumers are nothing better than greedy brats; get them used to free ice cream and when you actually tell them they have to pay for your new cone they will throw a tantrum. It is an ugly generalization, but it holds more than a grain of truth.
Nuh-uh! Does Not! Pthhhhhhhht!
__________________ Mark "El Mahdi" Armstrong - Semper Operor Verus
". . . after all, that is why we're here. Kill the last bad guy and then there's cake." - Major General Jack O'Neal
The OGL spoiled as all big time. I may sound harsh in saying this, but consumers are nothing better than greedy brats; get them used to free ice cream and when you actually tell them they have to pay for your new cone they will throw a tantrum. It is an ugly generalization, but it holds more than a grain of truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkuri
I feel like we've been spoiled by the 3e SRD. Why else would we think that copying big chunks out of a copyrighted book and making it available for free on the web is acceptable?
I'm not going to address the rest of these two posts but I did want to talk about this whole "spoiled" by the SRD thing. I think perhaps the draconian practices of TSR and the subsequent SRD may have put things in a slightly skewed light.
IME, most rpg's other than D&D that I play have tons of this type of stuff on the internet and aren't making the fans who created it take it down (hell, some of it is offered by the actual company for free.). Just a few off-hand I know about are... Exalted, it has charm cards out there...Star Wars SE has company made and fan made force cards on the internet... Contract Cards for Changeling and... you know what never mind. I guess in the end either you support a companies practices because they are what you agree with or you don't. But please this "spoiled brat" line of reasoning is insulting when it really has nothing to do with the SRD and everything with the value particular companies offer those who choose to support their products.
Here's a link where WW has all of it's Solar Exalted charm cards for download...free.
And here's a fan's blog who created and posted links to contract cards for Changeling the Lost... he even posted their location on White Wolf's forum...
Perhaps it's not so much being spoiled as the fact that the value expected when one supports a game has changed both in the view of the consumer as well as in the view of many companies... and perhaps WotC needs to realize this. I'm not saying eveything should be free, but there are certain expectations (you know like a decent character sheet) that help facilitate gameplay and are not charged for by many game companies or C&D letters sent out, though most fan sheets I've seen use the D&D logo, name, etc.). I don't think it's being "spoiled" to expect this from the industry leader when everyone around them appears to be doing it.
__________________ Nobody built like me, I designed myself ...as an
Perhaps it's not so much being spoiled as the fact that the value expected when one supports a game has changed both in the view of the consumer as well as in the view of many companies... and perhaps WotC needs to realize this. I'm not saying eveything should be free, but there are certain expectations (you know like a decent character sheet) that help facilitate gameplay and are not charged for by many game companies or C&D letters sent out, though most fan sheets I've seen use the D&D logo, name, etc.). I don't think it's being "spoiled" to expect this from the industry leader when everyone around them appears to be doing it.
I think it's worth pointing out that these other game companies are swimming in different waters, as far as markets and market power, than WotC. I think a lot of smaller companies are willing to invest the effort in these offerings and risk the loss of potential revenue because it (or at least forego a likely paltry revenue stream) saves them in marketing expenses. I suspect it serves as efficient and cheap marketing on their part. They need that community service to keep or expand their niche among niches market.
WotC, with the biggest game titles in market and media share and as part of the Hasbro conglomerate, has the resources to run broader marketing and actually has the a ghost of a chance to turn something like character sheets or power cards into a revenue-generating product. So they do.
__________________ Bill D
"There's a fine line between a superpower and a chronic medical condition."
- Doctor Impossible
Let me preface this by saying that I am not an Intellectual Property lawyer, and most of my IP knowledge is from back in '94 when I was in lawschool, ranting and raving against TSR on Usenet. So don't anyone take this as legal advice, please.
Also, I barely know 4e, I don't know what Powers and Power Cards are, and most importantly, I never saw the site in question.
Now that it's been established that I have absolutely no basis for a legal opinion of any kind on the matter, here's my personal non-lawyerish opinion.
It sounds like the guy had copyrighted material on the site, and WOTC had a right to take it down.
It seems like, according to Scott R., someone could put up a power card with fan designed material in it on a website. Since a Power seems to be a new part of 4e, able to be licensed under the GSL, then under the current GSL, as I understand it, that right to publish it can be taken away on a whim. It also seems that in the absence of a fansite policy, in order to protect your ass when it comes to publishing a Power Card on your webpage using the template, you may need to sign the GSL. That seems to be the cautionary implication I get from Scott R.'s posts in this thread.
Since there is no fansite policy in place, I would suggest everyone take the recent C&D letters as a warning. Though the material in question in these last couple enforcement actions seems to have been wrongfully published, in that copyrighted material was published, in one case for money and in one case for free, it is an indication that WOTC is not messing around when it comes to perceived copyright violations.
Can a person put up something vaguely in the shape of a Power Card and call it something else, and post what are essentially powers on the card? Yes. Will WOTC try to do something about it? Who knows. You can be fairly certain that if they do, they'll threaten the hosting company, and the company will shut the site down if the owner of the site doesn't.
That's just the way it works. I have found that the law is usually less about what is legal, and more about those with power doing what they like through the law against those without power.
No one wants the hassle and expense of a lawsuit. I've done stuff like what WOTC is doing myself. A client of mine had a book published which had what could be considered defamatory comments on a website about the book and author, beyond just your typical "this book sucked." So I sent them a "I JoetheLawyer will sue your ass in Federal Court unless you take down all bad comments about this book" letter, and within a week the offending comments were removed. The website was Amazon.com. They had the power and money to fight i if they so choset. Most small website hosting companies don't. What do you think the small companies will do? The same thing they did in the early 90's when TSR started their clampdown.
My opinion, as I have been stating for months now, is that one of the motivations for such a radical change from 3.x to 4e in terms of terminology was so that WOTC could do just this: Clamp down on anything which in their opinion may cut into their sales. They wanted to undo the OGL as much as they possibly could. Hence Powers, Bloodied, and all the other new terminology and changes which seem to be changes mostly for the sake of the change. They want to take back more of the market.
Call me cynical, but I don't think the ridiculous delay of the revised GSL was unintentional either. It's just good business to do so. Bad PR, but they may be of the opinion that they can spin that bad PR away.
I do remember Scott R. saying recently in a post that he was investigating websites for IP violations. I thnk that post was in response to a "Where's the new GSL?" post. I think that's a fairly good indication of where WOTC's priorities are these days, and perhaps a glimpse into the future. We'll see in a few years where we're at.
I don't blame Necro Games and others for taking a cautionary approach to publishing for 4e. Who knows, the revised GSL may adress their concerns. Judging by how long it is taking to get revised GSL though, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a fansite policy.
Anyhow, I'm typed out on the matter. All I have to say is thank god for Pathfinder and all the other OGL-based games out there. Because of the OGL we will never be in a situation many of us remember from the early 90's with TSR.
Since I don't like 4e anyhow, call me self-centered, but I don't give a damn what WOTC does these days. As far as I see it, these sorts of aggressive enforcement tactics, delays in licenses, and bad PR moves all push gamers away from 4e and into systems that I play, increasing the relative power and marketshare of those game systems and their players.
__________________ ~Joe
If you like what I said, throw me some XP. I was a goblin sharpshooter for far too long.
Perhaps it's not so much being spoiled as the fact that the value expected when one supports a game has changed both in the view of the consumer as well as in the view of many companies... and perhaps WotC needs to realize this. I'm not saying eveything should be free, but there are certain expectations (you know like a decent character sheet) that help facilitate gameplay and are not charged for by many game companies or C&D letters sent out, though most fan sheets I've seen use the D&D logo, name, etc.). I don't think it's being "spoiled" to expect this from the industry leader when everyone around them appears to be doing it.
This is my problem with it. Wizards wants fansites to exist and spread D&D. "Oh, we love ENWorld and these other fansites," they say. It's pretty hard to do that without running afoul of IP law; between copyright and trademark there's a lot to "violate." Put up a writeup of your spiffy new fighter and actually include a power description, and you're "just cutting and pasting Wizards IP." Especially on community sites like this, there's a lot of opportunity for random folks to post stuff that has Wizards IP (see the ENWorld Downloads section for evidence).
They want to close sites they don't like, though. The fair thing to do for the community would be to actually publish these fabled fansite guidelines. Rouse keeps saying that they're just not high priority. So treating your customers fairly isn't high priority? Especially your lead customers who put time and effort into promoting and developing your game? I find it entertaining seeing so many people excuse and celebrate Wizards' contempt for them.
I think it's worth pointing out that these other game companies are swimming in different waters, as far as markets and market power, than WotC. I think a lot of smaller companies are willing to invest the effort in these offerings and risk the loss of potential revenue because it (or at least forego a likely paltry revenue stream) saves them in marketing expenses. I suspect it serves as efficient and cheap marketing on their part. They need that community service to keep or expand their niche among niches market.
WotC, with the biggest game titles in market and media share and as part of the Hasbro conglomerate, has the resources to run broader marketing and actually has the a ghost of a chance to turn something like character sheets or power cards into a revenue-generating product. So they do.
Oh, I understand that... I was just making the point that it's a little more complex than being "spoiled" by the SRD.
__________________ Nobody built like me, I designed myself ...as an
IME, most rpg's other than D&D that I play have tons of this type of stuff on the internet and aren't making the fans who created it take it down (hell, some of it is offered by the actual company for free.).
So does WotC. There are tons of D&D sites with fan made bits up that they aren't making them take down.
Quote:
Just a few off-hand I know about are... Exalted, it has charm cards out there...Star Wars SE has company made and fan made force cards on the internet... Contract Cards for Changeling and... you know what never mind.
I am not as aware of the general RPG field out there as I used to be (just not enough time at my age). How many of these are duplicates of products the company either has released or are about to release?
Because if none of them are then it is sort of comparing apples to oranges. It's hard to hold a company up for allowing fans to create tools they have no intention of marketing and then reviling a company for not allowing that when the tools steps on the tools of a product the company is releasing.
__________________ David A. Blizzard
"The only constant I am sure of is this accelerating rate of change" - Downside Up by Peter Gabriel
Last edited by Glyfair; 20th February 2009 at 03:30 AM..
Its not suprising. WOTC has every right to demand that its copyrighted materials not be distributed free of charge.
The genius part was letting the site operate for as long as it did. Why pay for market research when fans will do it for nothing? The site proved that there is a demand for such cards now WOTC can sell them.
Although my immediate reaction was "Power cards are copyrighted material? THAT'S worthy of a cease-and-desist letter?", WotC is within their rights to protect their IP/copyrighted materials. Petty, IMO, but within their rights.
If you are correct, however, that they took advantage of "free market research" as you've suggested, however, the word that comes to mind starts with "P" and ends with "icks".
I'd prefer to think they just got around to deciding whether or not it was worth bothering with. If that's me with my head in the sand, oh well. But if the GSL is any indication, their legal department ain't exactly speedy, quick, or nimble...
I do remember Scott R. saying recently in a post that he was investigating websites for IP violations. I thnk that post was in response to a "Where's the new GSL?" post.
Actually, I suspect that post had more to do with a certain FREAKIN' CRAZY dude who thought he was "suing" WotC by putting the three core 3e books, and hmm, the Greyhawk Gazeteer or something, up for free download on his website.
Ahh, but if you can get them for free online, you don't really need to buy them, do you?
Well if they would have had the char generator working from the beginning, there would have been no need for anyone to create cards or char generators that helped you do the math. And I am a goof, I still would have bought the cards for characters I play a lot.
So does WotC. There are tons of D&D sites with fan made bits up that they aren't making them take down.
Yet...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glyfair
I am not as aware of the general RPG field out there as I used to be (just not enough time at my age). How many of these are duplicates of products the company either has released or are about to release?
Because if none of them are then it is sort of comparing apples to oranges. It's hard to hold a company up for allowing fans to create tools they have no intention of marketing and then reviling a company for not allowing that when the tools steps on the tools of a product the company is releasing.
You know I could almost get behind this... if WotC hadn't first bumbled the DDI which was supposed to be released at the same time as 4e... then produced, by most accounts a piss poor character sheet with misleading advertisement for sale. I actually can even relate to a site like Ema's where money is being charged being taken down... but this guy, Ryan, probably helped more than hindered anything with 4e up to this point. IMO this is more a case of allowing something to be created because you messed up and you need some time to get your act together and then crushing it now that you're finally doing something.
I guess I especially feel this because it was a great tool that I actually found and used the second time my group tried 4e...WotC sure wasn't offering us anything to use at the time (not even PDF files of power cards) and I don't think there's any way we would have played 4e without some easier way (than using the books) to reference powers. I mean what use are the powers without the rulebooks anyway. No... WotC saw a popular (almost necessary) accessory and is trying to commercialize it, I have no problem with this but honestly let the quality of your product get me to buy it... not your destruction of potentially useful sites.
Honestly this makes me wonder how well WotC's products and DDI are doing... you'd think if they were doing extraordinary they wouldn't be sweating little things like this. But that's neither here nor there and admittedly I could be totally off base with that.
I also wonder what's next to be outlawed, character sheets? There are still tons of sites with power cards are they all going to be shut down as well and all their content (not just the PC's) lost? Guess I better start downloading just in case I do want to play 4e.
__________________ Nobody built like me, I designed myself ...as an
IMO this is more a case of allowing something to be created because you messed up and you need some time to get your act together and then crushing it now that you're finally doing something.
Or maybe WotC didn't know about the site until recently. I certainly didn't. How many people in this thread didn't either? Tons, I bet. Why are you assuming that the folks in legal at WotC are omniscient?
I'm on WotC's side on this one, hands down. Sounds like Ryan's site was pretty neat and had some cool functionality, but also sounds like it pretty clearly violated WotC's IP rights.
If you want to put up a fansite for BLANK power cards, go ahead!
If you want to put up a fansite for power cards with prefilled into straight outta WotC's rulebooks . . . . you deserve a smackdown.
Why should WotC allow some fan who didn't do his homework to create a site (or product) that directly competes with their online offerings (Charcter Builder) and print offerings (this spring's power card decks) using their own IP? Expecting them to allow that kind of crap for "public relations" or as a "fan service" is just ridiculous IMO.
In order for me to agree with the above, I would need to understand the timing involved -- and I'll state up front I don't.
If WotC announced/advertised their own purchasable power card decks, whathave you before the site went live then the following paragraph is null and void:
If the site in question has been in operation for some time preceeding WotC's announcement of purchasable power cards, then WotC when debating about making such a product, would have to know that "unofficial" versions would be on the web, just as there are with character sheets. At that point, it's a CHOICE whether to ignore or take legal action to remove the free stuff.
Which leads me to what is probably my biggest gripe against some of the more, shall we say, emphatic WotC defenders: the "Might makes right" argument.
Just because WotC can charge for something doesn't mean it should. I'm a sales engineer, so I've seen where a "value-add" given for free engenders customer loyalty and where charging for a value-add pisses a happy customer off. I mean, are the potential revenues for power cards really that great? If they are, then WotC made the right move - for WotC.
One of the greatest, yet most highly sought, intangibles of any business is customer loyalty. Often, competition forces a business to provide value-adds for discounted prices or for free where they would otherwise charge for them. This is good - for the customer because they're paying less money.
Now as I said, I don't know the timing involved, nor do I know the market demand for power cards, or what price point that market will bear - so I'm not blaming WotC or accusing them of anything. It is what it is.
But one of the most perplexing things about 4e, the edition wars, etc. is the
seemingly slavish loyalty whereby some people appear to applaud WotC's choices that arguably only benefit WotC. WotC took back the Dungeon/Dragon/DragonLance license --> "Why not, it's within their right to do so!"
No OGL or d20 system license equivalents for 4e, only the GSL --> "Why would WotC want competing products" (although this one is almost immediately followed by how insignificant 3PPs are to WotC's revenues...), etc.
BTW, these are examples of arguments I've seen and/or participated in, I'm not looking to rehash them.
Now all of the above may be the best possible move for WotC. Business is business and if I were on their side of the table, maybe I'd make the same decisions. But as a gamer, a GM, and a customer, some of these moves decrease choices and add expense (if I choose to purchase, of course). That's just an objective fact - whether it's good or bad is left to each person to decide. WotC doing something just because they can due to their size, market share, or brand recognition seems like poor reasons for a customer to justify such actions, IMO.
If Power Card revenues will rival that of a rulebook, then maybe it's worth it. But if they didn't come up with the idea until after fans posted homemade ones on websites...well just because they can doesn't necessarily mean they should.
BTW, none of the "Might makes right" discussion is directed at Dire Bear, only my comments about the timing. The whole situation reminded me of the "might makes right" phenomena I'm referencing.
So again, any numbers on actualy RPG piracy theft?
I'd be willing to bet it's so close to zero only an insurance company would notice. I have a hard time seeing someone jumping a container ship to steal RPG books.
Copyright violation, while wrong and, sadly, a crime (it should be a civil matter) is neither theft or piracy, despite what people want to think. Piracy is warlike action (typically a violent crime) on an ocean, lake, or river by a non-state actor and theft or larceny (two subtly different things) require tangible property (ie, intellectual property does not count). If, by means of force, you take a case of D&D book from a ship, that is piracy theft of Wizard's property (assuming it's stil theirs and not the recipients at that point, but that's not important.)
__________________ We can lick gravity, but sometimes the paperwork is overwhelming. - Werner von Braun
Right now you have no idea how lucky you are that I am not a sociopath. - A sign seen above my desk.
Never confuse movement with action. - Ernest Hemingway
Or maybe WotC didn't know about the site until recently. I certainly didn't. How many people in this thread didn't either? Tons, I bet. Why are you assuming that the folks in legal at WotC are omniscient?
I'm going to assume they knew about it if they did the most modest of investigation into 4e powercards... put it into google and it's the first or second site that pops up. I find it harder to believe that WotC (or at least WotC's marketing department) doesn't keep track of what pops up (at least the top 3 or 4 sites) on search terms related to their products.
EDIT: In fact I would say there are so many fan created sets of 4e power cards with information that we will be seeing this happen quite a bit in the coming days.
__________________ Nobody built like me, I designed myself ...as an
Last edited by Imaro; 20th February 2009 at 04:42 AM..
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