things i like/dislike about dungeon delve - sort of a review

[evilbob]

This isn't really a complete review, but just a few quick thoughts after purchasing the book and thumbing through. I thought I'd post for other folks who are still sitting on the fence after reading some reviews (which all seem to just tell you what it is and not more) and trying to decide whether or not to take the plunge.

Things I disliked:

- Introductory attitude. I recommend skipping pages 4-7. The "introduction" is just a self-congratulatory explanation of why the authors think this book is awesome. It seriously almost kept me from buying the book. Also, I really dislike the whole "DM vs. party" page, because frankly, the absolute best way to keep people from playing D&D ever again is to play it DM vs. party. I know; I've seen it happen. This is at best an advanced idea to be used by folks who already know the game and want to fool around; as advice for newbies it is TERRIBLE. It's easily the worst page in the book.

- Marketing constraints. For anyone who was afraid that a huge corporate publisher might reign in creativity, you just got vindicated. They were so concerned with pushing related product - dungeon tiles - that the last two thirds of the book are really constrained when it comes to locations and maps. For heroic levels it's not bad, but otherwise the lack of creative map design due to the clear constraint to stay within the approved product range is really, really sad. The best thing you can do with later maps is to throw them away and make up your own using the same encounter groups: they will be better.

- I don't think this is a trend but the first encounter I looked at - level 3 - is a guaranteed TPK. I don't mean it might happen, I mean it is 100% without DM intervention. You just can't fight an n+5 elite with more HP than the entire party combined and 3 other >n enemies at the end of a third encounter and live. (I've seen what an n+5 elite can do by itself. When you have to roll above 15 to hit something with 5x your HP, it's not good.) I haven't noticed any other encounters this lop-sided, but this one stood out. Others seemed "hard" or "very hard," with a few "slightly hard" ones thrown in, too.


Things I liked:

- Convenience. This is really the whole selling point of the book, but it works. Each encounter is laid out similarly to the stuff in the back of the DMG, and they made sure that absolutely everything you need to run each encounter fits on two (facing) pages. That. Is. Awesome. No more flipping around the MM!!! I cannot stress enough how great this is for a DM. Plus, they did all the math for you, too. Monsters in the encounters have been up-leveled and down-leveled occasionally (no need to figure) and all the XP and treasure totals have been laid out (although specific treasure must be chosen by the DM, but you were going to do that, anyway). I haven't checked to see if these numbers are correct or not (I'm guessing not, since even the short DMG adventure had tons of errors) but it's nice to have something.

- Good ideas. You can tell that even though they were heavily constrained, the authors did what they could to have a very wide variety of encounter flavors - which is cool, because the book could have been done without them. Plus, it's so easy to reskin things, you effectively have a variety of encounters that would work for wherever you want.

- A great gift. This is a perfect tool for the budding DM(s) in your group who finally decided to give 4.0 a try. Get it, use it, and pass it around for others to play with when you're strapped for time or someone else wants to give it a whirl: like I said, the maps are forgettable so toss them, reskin the enemies, and you have a new encounter in about 2 minutes. Just be sure to rip page 7 out of the book so they don't accidentally ruin the game for others. (And warn them about encounter 3.)


Would I recommend it? Well, no. Frankly, between the encounter builder, the MM, and your own creativity, you've already got plenty of tools to make excellent encounters. There is absolutely zero that this book has to offer for anyone who is a good DM or has been at the job for a while, except pre-printed pages that offer quick and easy tools to just throw something together. That said: who hasn't occasionally just wished they had a pre-printed tool so they could just throw something together? It's a decent resource if you're low on time (who isn't?) and a very good resource if you're a brand new DM and scared to just jump out there on your own (it's ok - you can do it without this book!).

Why did I get it? Because I occasionally wished that I had a pre-printed tool that would allow me to just throw something together. I think the list price is too steep; honestly it's not bad as a $20 book, but $30 is definitely too much. (Go through Amazon.) But, on the other hand this product was MADE to be used as a book, and I don't think it'd be quite as good or useful as a PDF (although you can get the PDF for basically 1/2 price right now, I noticed).

Hope this helps folks make up their mind if they haven't already!

 

[Wik]

The level 3 encounter you speak of isn't a guaranteed TPK. It gives notes on the lethality of the fight, and the elite actually moves to provoke AOs frequently. The 2 brutes could be a problem, as could the skirmisher, but the PCs should be able to use their powers creatively to get out of this one. Plus, the roaring fire means clever PCs can use the terrain to move foes into a bad place (and if they work together, they can actually PIN a target in there!).

I think, at 3rd level, one of the two groups I had would have died, and the second would have had a tough time, but managed.

I agree with you regarding the dungeon tiles, though they used them a lot more creatively than I ever would have thought possible. It does sort of make sense, though - this product is designed as an "instant adventure", and Dungeon Tiles help facilitate that sort of play.

I think the encounters are well designed, and are fairly creative. Most of them have at least one non-monster element that makes the encounter memorable - none of them are pure "grinds". One thing that caught my eye is the fact that few of the solo monsters are actually "solo" - they usually have a companion or two within a few points of their level. Which could be a problem.

This is not a book to base campaigns around; you've mentioned something similar. This is a book that is very useful for me. When two players don't show up, instead of running my planned adventure, I can grab this, and run an instant adventure. Which is cool.

My big beef? Isn't the art on the back cover recycled? How lame is that?

Oh, and some of the skill challenges wouldn't really work unless you flat out said "hey, guys, there's a skill challenge right here".

Also, many elements of the map are not made clear (ie, a certain feature of the encounter that is not visible on the map tiles is not given a specific location).

 

[evilbob]

Quick update after running one series of encounters and looking at the book more:

I have to say, I'm a bit more impressed than when I first looked through it. As I suspected, some of the numbers are wrong, but many of the ideas in this book are just downright good. The designers have done a great job of pushing crappy map tiles as FAR as they are able to go: I only wonder what we could have gotten without this marketing constraint. But there are some really original and interesting ideas tucked away at least once pretty much every mini-adventure.

Also, I mentioned this before but it's worth saying again: I probably reduced my prep time by 80-90% and my actual run time of the game by maybe 25-35%. The former was expected (and why I bought the book) but the latter was a pleasant surprise. Having all the details you need on two facing pages really IS amazing, and I would highly recommend even for your own encounters to mimic this design idea. Copy stat blocks, make notes, but just put everything together in one simple place - hard copy or electronic - and it will seriously speed up your playtime. And that's awesome.

Overall, even though I've been creating and running encounters for years I think I picked up some good tips for how to make a good 4.0 encounter from this book (probably not as useful for other games), and there are still lots of good ideas to mine/steal/reskin for other encounters. I'd have to say that after some playtime, I would go back and change my original recommendation up to "maybe." I'm still not convinced it's worth $30 and you can still technically do it all yourself, but if you're short on time or trying to learn how to make good encounters, I think it can help.

 

[Badwe]

I don’t really get the “marketing constraint” quip. At the time delve came out, I already owned all of the tile sets it uses and was pleased to see unique ways to arrange them all and make use of them. I think this is a logical fallacy that many on these boards have: it’s not a greedy, corporate move to make products people want to buy and make them work with each other. That’s just good business practices (and a good game). Is the DMG a product of marketing constraints because it gives you an XP system to put monsters from the MM into to create encounters? Would the MM be a better product if there was no immediate way to use it alongside the DMG? Of course not.

On the topic of introductory pages: I had been wondering what the origin of the delve was and I found the pages to be a great explanation that gave me perspective on the goals of a delve format vs. other types of adventures. The PC vs. DM is admittedly something to be pursued with trepidation, but is not as soul-crushing as the OP posits. As they mention: the delve is a format origination from a con where players have disposable characters that they get to see die in glorious battle instead of carefully defending as in their normal campaigns. I think the real issue here is that using the term PC vs. DM, along with the tiles, conjures images of D&D as a boardgame that many posters are horrified at the prospect of. Just replace the term with “Rat Bastard DM” and you have the same paradigm but with a, somehow, less negative connotation.

I saw something similar with the orc encounter and was somewhat surprised by how willing some of the higher level encounters were to exceed. For reference, his defenses are AC 22; Fortitude 22, Reflex 19, Will 21. So if the typical level 3 adventurer will have a +4/5 for their primary stat, a +1 for half level, +2/3 for weapon, and +0/1 depending on if they’ve managed to get a magic weapon (if they’ve made these characters starting at level 3 they most certainly would), then you’re looking at +5 to +10 to hit, potentially (+3 to +7 for implements). Figure in flanking for AC and you have +7 to +12, so anywhere between need a 17 to hit to a 10, ranging between nearly impossible to “as expected”, which for a level n+5 elite is very impressive (the magic of brutes, they’re the most fun to beat on). Another upside is most non-AC attacks are hitting reflex at this level, so they have a 3 point difference, comparable to the weapon prof bonus. Those hitting fort are likely screwed, what would you expect from a tough orc? Overall a tough guy, but I have found brutes to pose the least threat to my PCs that are able to set up a good advantage.

I personally am happy with the money I’ve invested in delve. This is one of the few products I’m eager to see a sequel to a year from now (PHB2 and MM2 I accept, not so keen on DMG2 or sequels to splat books).

 

[I'm A Banana]

At the time delve came out, I already owned all of the tile sets it uses and was pleased to see unique ways to arrange them all and make use of them.

Well, that's the marketing constraint.

The idea isn't that WotC is greedy corporate cross-marketing dragon trolls.

The idea is that Dungeon Delve could have been a better book if it didn't tie itself to this limitation.

I mean, bully for you having all those things, but it's sad that the book couldn't have been more awesome.

I do kind of get why they did it independent of the cross-marketing angle. If the idea is to have ready-made adventures that are ready to go right away, using dungeon tiles means that you already have a to-scale map, which would otherwise be a problem.

 

[Shroomy]

Well, that's the marketing constraint.

The idea isn't that WotC is greedy corporate cross-marketing dragon trolls.

The idea is that Dungeon Delve could have been a better book if it didn't tie itself to this limitation.

I mean, bully for you having all those things, but it's sad that the book couldn't have been more awesome.

I do kind of get why they did it independent of the cross-marketing angle. If the idea is to have ready-made adventures that are ready to go right away, using dungeon tiles means that you already have a to-scale map, which would otherwise be a problem.

I think in the case of Dungeon Delve the constraints placed on the designers to use Dungeon Tiles really paid off. They're lots of really creative uses of terrain in the various delves, many of which utilize the same tile. So not only does the book contain a lot of great encounters, it also showcases how versatile Dungeon Tiles can be.

 

[keterys]

This is a surprisingly smart (cause, let's be honest, you're not expecting much) that is outright _fantastic_ for only occasional DMs or filler nights when people are missing. I was heartily impressed and quite happy to buy it because it means that I get to play more, since it made it easy for one of my players to DM

 

[Cadfan]

I bought it entirely because of its compatibility with dungeon tiles. I also bought a pack of dungeon tiles because it was compatible with the delve. First time I'd bought those.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I suppose the problem/advantages rely on if you use dungeon tiles. My group does, and it drove my DM almost to distraction trying to map out the Troll King adventure with dungeon tiles (and we have almost every set, with duplicates of a set or two. )

I like he tile part of the Dungeon Delve, personally, and I agree they did a very nice job of using the tiles. The main problem I see is that in the latter adventures the areas for combats are way too small. When one monster can move totally across the board with a single move, you need to give them more room to use their speed to their own advantage. Otherwise they minght as well not have it.

 

[I'm A Banana]

They're lots of really creative uses of terrain in the various delves, many of which utilize the same tile. So not only does the book contain a lot of great encounters, it also showcases how versatile Dungeon Tiles can be.

Sure. I think it's fair to say that DD is an add value product. It adds value to the Dungeon Tiles, and the Dungeon Tiles add value to it, and both of them together are stronger than either one without. But, the flip side is, if you're pointing out that the emperor has no clothes, the whole thing falls apart (meaning, maybe less metaphorically, if you buy DD without buying Dungeon Tiles, DD is less valuable...and, perhaps, if you buy Dungeon Tiles without DD, that Dungeon Tiles are less valuable, as the post about the Troll King indicates, though each undoubtedly has a value of their own, too).

It's a conditional positive (and a conditional negative). It's fair to point out that the use of Dungeon Tiles constrained DD, just as it's fair to point out that constraint showed by DD enhances the value of your dungeon tiles.