General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
Outside America, only two demographic groups are familiar with the Imperial system of measurement: octogenarians and gamers.
Gaming's popular in Europe and Australasia, so why are games there published with system of measurement that is both redundant and illogical?
The general assumption is that the largest market for RPGs is in the US, which would mean it makes sense to publish only in Imperial. But is that true?
Would it be worthwhile to publish metric editions of games such as D&D for countries which use that system?
D&D is system-agnostic. It measures in squares, which you can treat as 5 feet or 2 meters more or less interchangeably. But for games in general, I can't imagine that the advantage of having distances and areas described in your system of choice could possibly outweigh the expense and burden of printing two editions of every product- editions that differ only in the measurements used.
Outside America, only two demographic groups are familiar with the Imperial system of measurement: octogenarians and gamers.
Gaming's popular in Europe and Australasia, so why are games there published with system of measurement that is both redundant and illogical?
The general assumption is that the largest market for RPGs is in the US, which would mean it makes sense to publish only in Imperial. But is that true?
Would it be worthwhile to publish metric editions of games such as D&D for countries which use that system?
It may be naive of me to believe, but I am under the impression that the US is the largest share of the market (as you suggest in your final paragraph), and from what I've seen, I can think of only one demographic group within America that is familiar with the Metric system: scientists. I wish that wasn't true, because the metric system is infinitely more logical than the Imperial system (1kilometer = 1000meters [factors of 10] vs. 1mile = 5280feet [factors of WTF?]).
However, I think another reason for this dominance of the Imperial system is that many of the developers and designers are familiar with the Imperial system and can visualize Imperial measurements, but are unable to do the same with Metric measurements (even as a scientist, I admit that I have some difficulty with visualizing metric measurements, especially distances [I'm a chemist, I don't deal with distance - volume and mass, sure, but not distance]). Because of this predominance among the developers and the market favoring the Imperial system, and the societal recoil from anything metric, I can understand why many games are written with Imperial measurements.
But of course, that doesn't deal with the issue of why the measurements aren't adjusted to metric when translated to another language, since the market for the translated edition is likely able to visualize metric measurements, but not Imperial? I can think of two answers to this. The first is far simpler: the translators are lazy. It's a lot easier to just leave the measurements in Imperial units than it is to go through and convert all of them to equivalent (or at least similar) metric units.
This brings me to my second answer: if a measurement is "30 feet," what is the proper choice of conversion? Do we approximate 1 yard (3 feet) to equal 1 meter (roughly 10% off - 36 inches vs. ~39 inches)? This would leave the "30 feet" measurement equal to 10 meters... a simple number. However, what happens to squares? As written in 3.x, 1 square is 5 feet on a side... that would become 5/3 meters... not a simple measurement... and if we approximate that to 2 meters, we then end up with the 10 meter measurement we got earlier as 5 squares, rather than 6 as written.
To put it simply, my second answer to the question (2 paragraphs above) is that it would require some form of approximation, and a general consensus of how to do the conversion: if you're being accurate to within ~10%, then we have to be willing to have somewhat awkward measurements for certain things (like how long the side of a square is), or be willing to have the distance (in squares) be different in the Imperial and Metric systems... neither of which is a particularly pleasant choice, and likely leads back into the first answer: developers and translators have decided that laziness (not dealing with the second answer I proposed) is preferable to trying to figure out a workable conversion that doesn't make things unnecessarily complicated.
Last edited by rogueboy; 4th April 2009 at 07:57 AM..
RuneQuest also uses the metre as a standard of measurement.
In the UK we swap between the two systems quite easily, sometimes in the same spoken sentence.
We measure road distances in miles, but our weights are in kilos and fuel in litres. It's not that difficult to hold multiple systems in your head at once.
I can't imagine that the advantage of having distances and areas described in your system of choice could possibly outweigh the expense and burden of printing two editions of every product- editions that differ only in the measurements used.
This. You're talking about increasing the print costs of each and every book by an enormous amount, for a change that will probably result in zero additional sales. (Or at least a number so small as to be functionally meaningless, unless I'm wildly mistaken about the huge populations of folks in other countries who are just chomping at the bit to become gamers, if only the games gave distances in metric. )
__________________ Ari Marmell
aka
Mouseferatu
--Rodent of the Dark
RuneQuest also uses the metre as a standard of measurement.
In the UK we swap between the two systems quite easily, sometimes in the same spoken sentence.
We measure road distances in miles, but our weights are in kilos and fuel in litres. It's not that difficult to hold multiple systems in your head at once.
Most people measure people-weight in stone, which are (I think!) 14 to a pound. US just uses pounds. There has been a fair bit of resistance in the UK to the EU-mandated conversion to metric for weights & measures. Overall I'd the UK uses both Imperial and Metric in roughly equal amounts. But D&D's use of yards & miles for distance is more familiar and comfortable to most UK gamers than meters & km would be.
I like sf games like Traveller to use m & km though.
Actually if we were being logical, we'd all operate in Base 12, far better. Alas we usually only have 10 digits on our hands. One of the reasons in my games advanced alien races have 12 digits, they got a "one-up" (or rather "two-up" on the mathematics side a long time ago.
Actually if we were being logical, we'd all operate in Base 12, far better. Alas we usually only have 10 digits on our hands. One of the reasons in my games advanced alien races have 12 digits, they got a "one-up" (or rather "two-up" on the mathematics side a long time ago.
Forgive my ignorance . . . but what's better about base 12?
~
__________________
Click above to see S7S's FREE Rune Soldier Heroic Tier Playtest
also check out Silent7Seven.com for information on The Lunar Scrolls,
and the Advanced Class line including "Druid — Favored Forms"
and "Sorcerer — Aberrant Blood"
Forgive my ignorance . . . but what's better about base 12?
~
Duodecimal (base-12) beats decimal (base-10) because 12 is an abundant number, unlike 10, which is a deficient number. Simply put, it means 12 (2·2·3) can be divided into a larger variety of parts that 10 (2·5) can.
Personally I'm a fan of senary (base-6) because 6 is a perfect number; But the base is too small, resulting in significantly larger representations for the same number (i.e. 7654321 in decimal becomes 432020401 in senary).
Another interesting base is vigesimal (base-20) because like 12, 20 (2·2·5) is an abundant number, and it relates to decimal better than duodecimal does (to people used to decimal, vigesimal feels like a combination of decimal and binary (base-2), with powers that are products of the decimal powers and the binary powers (20=2·10, 400=4·100, 8000=8·1000, etc.). It also has a word in english for a number equal to its base: a score. So, 145 in decimal becomes seven score and 5 in vigesimal.
__________________ Orhhh! Ehihihi... Great warrior. Woarhuhuh huhuhu... Wars not make one great hehehmhm...
Actually if we were being logical, we'd all operate in Base 12, far better. Alas we usually only have 10 digits on our hands. One of the reasons in my games advanced alien races have 12 digits, they got a "one-up" (or rather "two-up" on the mathematics side a long time ago.
Count finger segments on one hand, ignoring the thumb.
__________________ We can lick gravity, but sometimes the paperwork is overwhelming. - Werner von Braun
Right now you have no idea how lucky you are that I am not a sociopath. - A sign seen above my desk.
Never confuse movement with action. - Ernest Hemingway
Duodecimal (base-12) beats decimal (base-10) because 12 is an abundant number, unlike 10, which is a deficient number. Simply put, it means 12 (2·2·3) can be divided into a larger variety of parts that 10 (2·5) can.
While true, that fails to give a practical reason why it is "better". Being abundant isn't of particular use to folks doing arithmetic - humans are already good at dealing with numbers down in the range of "a few" that there isn't much to be gained. And beyond arithmetic, the base hardly matters at all - unless you want to work in base e.
Outside America, only two demographic groups are familiar with the Imperial system of measurement: octogenarians and gamers.
Really? All my friends from UK/AUS/NZ are familiar with it and none are older than 40 and none are gamers. People I know from UK still use stones when referring to their weight...
__________________ Being a DM does not require that you check your brain at the door. Much to the chagrin of munchkins & powergamers.
Duodecimal (base-12) beats decimal (base-10) because 12 is an abundant number, unlike 10, which is a deficient number. Simply put, it means 12 (2·2·3) can be divided into a larger variety of parts that 10 (2·5) can.
Which is a reason why carpenters like the imperial inch, foot, yard system over metric.
__________________ Being a DM does not require that you check your brain at the door. Much to the chagrin of munchkins & powergamers.
Duodecimal (base-12) beats decimal (base-10) because 12 is an abundant number, unlike 10, which is a deficient number. Simply put, it means 12 (2·2·3) can be divided into a larger variety of parts that 10 (2·5) can.
Improving accuracy of myself here: duodecimal beats decimal because 12 is a highly composite number (i.e. it has more dividers (1, 2, 3, 4, 6, & 12) than any smaller integer). 6 is higly composite too (having 4 dividers, being as good as 10 in that regard), but 20 isn't (having 6 dividers, being only as good as 12 in that regard).
More on topic, IMC, Rana, we use a vigesimal calendar:
Code:
great
seconds minutes hours days months years years
1 second = 1 1/20 1/400 1/8000 — — —
1 minute = 20 1 1/20 1/400 — — —
1 hour = 400 20 1 1/20 — — —
1 day = 8000 400 20 1 1/20 1/400 1/8000
1 month = — — — 20 1 1/20 1/400
1 year = — — — 400 20 1 1/20
1 great year = — — — 8000 400 20 1
with a ½ second round, a 1 minute short rest (40 rounds i.s.o. 50; "give me a minute to catcm my breath!"), and a 5 hour extended rest. The timescale match is: 1 Rana day is 1.1 D&D day (96000 D&D seconds), so the round is just as long as before (6 D&D seconds).
We also use a vigesimal currency system with 3 naming schemes:
with silver worth 10 times its weight in copper, electrum (a 10/1 silver/gold mass fraction alloy) ten times its weight in silver, gold ten times its weight in electrum, and platinum ten times its weight in gold. The currency match is 1 D&D sp = 1 Penny (purchasing power, not weight), so gold prices are cut to 1/40th of book values. We don't use astral diamonds per se (as 2½ Thrones are worth 100 000 Pennies, just like an Astral Diamond is worth 100 000sp), but we do have Residuum at 10 times its weight in platinum as "ultimate" portable wealth: 1 kilogram of the stuff is worth 10000 kg silver (i.e. 10 million Pennies), which is a pretty close match for the value of Residuum on PHB1 p225.
For distance we use paces (a necessary consession to 4E's pervasive "squares", with larger units not really defined so far (suggestions for what to call 30m, 600m, 12km and 240km are welcome ).
__________________ Orhhh! Ehihihi... Great warrior. Woarhuhuh huhuhu... Wars not make one great hehehmhm...
Which is a reason why carpenters like the imperial inch, foot, yard system over metric.
Unfortunately, the english / imperial system is not duodecimal. It's a hodgepodge of all kinds of different bases across its base dimensions; They didn't even manage to stick to a single numeric base for a single dimension: while the smaller units of length fractions can be excused as divisors of 12, someone made a major booboo when they defined the rod as 11 cubits, the furlong as 10 chains, and the mile as 8 furlongs. Similarly, units of volume seem to have a binary thing going on, except for the vigesimal relation between pints and fluid ounces. Last, but not least, the units of weight are all over the place, with 16ths, 20ths, and even 14ths (gods forbid).
And don't get me started on the deviations the US customary measures made.
So, in conclusion: while the metric system uses the (slightly-inferior-to-duodecimal) decimal system, at least it uses the same one everywhere, all the time.
__________________ Orhhh! Ehihihi... Great warrior. Woarhuhuh huhuhu... Wars not make one great hehehmhm...
)
).
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
