General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
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Uhh... did you read their authorized online seller stuff? There aren't any slavish or absurd standards aside from pretty much always maintaining your brick and morter store.
Well, I do think that forcing an Internet retailer to own a brick and mortar retail store is pretty absurd if taken at face value. I mean, it's nowhere near as draconian as the stuff that GW employed, but requiring that an Internet retailer start a completely different business to carry your product via their current business is Lewis Carroll absurd.
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Yeah but the current edition stuff is well was drivethru exclusive.
I did not know that.
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They already had that stuff in place before, (about Brick and Morter) just through the distributor. Did you read any of the retailer rewards stuff linked to the press release?
Yep. And, as stated above, that stipulation seems pretty silly. I have no doubt that it's designed to cripple Internet retailers given its absurd nature. Again, it's not quite the level of micro-management that GW asserted (e.g., minimum monthly purchases, maximum discount caps, etc) but it's pretty crazy, IMO.
April 6, 2009 ‹ Wizards of the Coast LLC today filed three lawsuits in US
District Court for the Western District of Washington against eight
individuals, including named defendants located in the United States, Poland
and the Philippines, for copyright infringement of its recently-released
Dungeons & Dragons® Player¹s Handbook® 2. The lawsuits allege that the
defendants illegally distributed the Player¹s Handbook 2 via free
file-sharing websites and that these illicit uploads resulted in a
substantial number of lost sales and lost revenue to Wizards of the Coast.
³Violations of our copyrights and piracy of our products hurt not only
Wizards of the Coast¹s financial health but also the health of whole gaming
community including retailers and players,² said Greg Leeds, President of
Wizards of the Coast. ³We have brought these suits to stop the illegal
activities of these defendants, and to deter future unauthorized and
unlawful file-sharing.²
The complaint alleges, among other things, that one or more of the
defendants purchased digital copies of Player¹s Handbook 2 and then
illegally posted the copies onto popular file-sharing sites for free access
and download by the general public.
About Wizards
Wizards of the Coast is the leader in entertaining the lifestyle gamer. The
company holds an exclusive patent on trading card games (TCGs) and their
method of play and produces the premier trading card game, MAGIC: THE
GATHERING®, among many other trading card games and family card and board
games. Wizards is also a leading publisher of roleplaying games, such as
DUNGEONS & DRAGONS®, and publisher of fantasy series fiction with numerous
New York Times best-sellers. For more information, visit the Wizards of the
Coast website at Wizards of the Coast.
__________________ - Piratecat, EN World Admin
Check out the membership drive and War of the Burning Sky adventure path. Support EN Publishing, get excellent modules!
Honestly, I'm going to check and see if there's really anything I need from an earlier edition and get it NOW.
__________________ I'm thinking you're totally out to lunch on this one. Find another form of foreplay that doesn't involve 3 hours of explanation and a pocket calculator.
Here's why. I just got this press release. It'll be on the news page before long.
Yup. That was my link, above.
Didn't Rouse say a few months ago that they had him chasing down pirate sites or something? And that was a reason for the delay in the GSL? Seems to be somewhat of a priority. And it also explains why no one got a warning. Why let the evil pirates know that it will be harder to get pdf's of books.
Seems someone has a bug up their ass over there about pdf sales. I wonder if they will be sold as pdf's again. Someone without an ounce of sense, but who is in charge, probably asked why they were making it easier for people to pirate books by making a good pdf version that people can easily share.
It makes no sense to anyone with a clue, by which I mean ending pdf sales will probably make pirating more widespread and cut off a valuable revenue stream for WOTC, which is why it's probably true that it's all tied to an anti-pirating initiative.
__________________ ~Joe
If you like what I said, throw me some XP. I was a goblin sharpshooter for far too long.
Here's why. I just got this press release. It'll be on the news page before long.
So are some of the individuals named employees of the distributors? Otherwise why react now, we had The Rouse on these very boards talking about the PDFs that came out before the books were released! Why has it all 'changed' 4E and other PDFs have been on the torrents forever... I am a bit confused I must say.
Anyway this sort of thing is going to loose them customers (in a righteous fury) and make more pirates (many gamers live on PDFs so they can only get now using scans on torrents)
Well done WotC, I have usually given them the benefit of the doubt but this is the worst PR thingy I have been personally involved in.
Here's why. I just got this press release. It'll be on the news page before long.
Why does that necessitate the pulling of all product from RPGNow? I mean, how could X user buying a product then reposting it elsewhere possibly require the removal of all product from RPGNow? The DRM was apparently good if they could track the PDF back to a RPGNow customer, after all. There is some piece of information that hasn't yet been made public, I suspect.
Well, I do think that forcing an Internet retailer to own a brick and mortar retail store is pretty absurd if taken at face value. I mean, it's nowhere near as draconian as the stuff that GW employed, but requiring that an Internet retailer start a completely different business to carry your product via their current business is Lewis Carroll absurd.
Maybe, but my real point was it's not a change from what they've been doing since the 90s, and from what I read about their retailer support stuff, it seems kind of far from what you're implying. (I could be wrong, but I just don't see how you're getting to where you are.)
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Yep. And, as stated above, that stipulation seems pretty silly. I have no doubt that it's designed to cripple Internet retailers given its absurd nature. Again, it's not quite the level of micro-management that GW asserted (e.g., minimum monthly purchases, maximum discount caps, etc) but it's pretty crazy, IMO.
It hasn't done so since the 90s. Seems like all it is now is that you just have to sign a contract.
The rest of the stuff is basically your store getting perks if you do things klike provide a game space.
The idea was always that the places that are internet only offer such a deep discount that it causes people to move away from the Brick and Morter places, which they felt help the industry. (By providing a place to meet gamers, learn about gaming, and even game.)
Again though, you could be entirely right... I just don't see how you're coming to the conclusions you are, based on the info at hand... If that's been their plan, it seems like they've taken a LONG time to enact it.
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Originally Posted by Piratecat
Here's why. I just got this press release. It'll be on the news page before long.
I'm not sure it's related, and not just things happening on the same day. What leads you to connect the two?
That said, as I mention earlier, this sounds far more like the GW push to 'help' brick and mortar stores by forcing Internet retailers to adhere to slavish, often absurd, standards in order to carry GW stock at all.
Then, after they effectively locked out most online distributors, they turned their sights on those brick and mortar stores they were previously trying to 'help' by forcing them to adhere to the same (or similar) standards.
Sorry to derail but I am really curious why did GW do this? What was there to gain? You mentioned something earlier about IP control but I really fail to understand what this might be about.
Someone without an ounce of sense, but who is in charge, probably asked why they were making it easier for people to pirate books by making a good pdf version that people can easily share.
Isn't that sort of unreasonable, considering that there other new big thing is the DDI which uses PDFs very liberally? Sounds schizophrenic.
Personally, I rather hope that that's some sort of initiative to tie it into the overall DDI scheme. Consolidating their stuff was done before - right before 4E and the DDI plans.
Because it would otherwise mean that you cannot legally get up-to-date PDFs any longer. And PDFs are neat and lightweight.
Why does that necessitate the pulling of all product from RPGNow? I mean, how could X user buying a product then reposting it elsewhere possibly require the removal of all product from RPGNow? The DRM was apparently good if they could track the PDF back to a RPGNow customer, after all. There is some piece of information that hasn't yet been made public, I suspect.
Because RPGNow decided not to sign the new contract.
If they had they could still sell PDFs of WotC.
I'd write/email, them asking them to sign so you can buy pdfs.
Edit: apparently, it is just WotC.
__________________ "If you can't believe in yourself, believe in me who believes in you."
and
"Go beyond the impossible, and kick reason to the curb" Kamina, from Gurren Lagann
Hey all. I wanted to step in and shine a mote of light on the subject. First off, this cesation of PDF sales has absolutely nothing to do with the Internet Sales Policy. I know it's the 6th of April and I can definitely see how the two would appear linked, but the truth is, this is a completely seperate matter.
Unfortunately, due to recent findings of illegal copying and online distribution (piracy) of our products, Wizards of the Coast has decided to cease the sales of online PDFs. We are exploring other options for digitial distribution of our content and as soon as we have any more information I'll get it to you.
Last edited by WotC_Trevor; 7th April 2009 at 01:46 AM..
Reason: removed unnecessary words
So, if Piracy is the cited reason for the action, does that therefore mean that there will be no more legal PDF downloads of D&D from this point forward?
Typical short-sighted reaction from WOTC, which makes zero sense at all, when you consider the fact that the most widely-spread pirated copies of the 4e products contain printers marks -- which means that their piracy problem pre-dated any purchases.
Speaking as somebody whose entire income is largely dependent on my PDF sales, this really pisses me off.
According to my data on RPGNow and DriveThru, a large chunk of my sales come from multi-product orders which include WOTC products. Now, with WOTC making this decision, those orders won't be there, because those customers won't be there.
The last thing that I, or any other publisher or vendor on the PDF side of the industry needed right now is a massive drop in sales. Thanks, WOTC.
Seriously. Can somebody over there unplug the LawyerTron 5000?
Hey all. I wanted to step in and add shine a mote of light on the subject. First off, this cesation of PDF sales has absolutely nothing to do with the Internet Sales Policy. I know it's the 6th of April and I can definitely see how the two would appear linked, but the truth is, this is a completely seperate matter.
Unfortunately, the truth is that due to recent findings of illegal copying and online distribution (piracy) of our products, Wizards of the Coast has decided to cease the sales of online PDFs. We are exploring other options for digitial distribution of our content and as soon as we have any more information I'll get it to you.
Thanks for dropping in Trevor!
I have to say, it's hard to believe you guys just noticed the piracy. Fact is, DnD books have been pirated since, well I think forever!
Fact 2 is, this move will not even put a pin sized dent in the problem, its just making it bigger!
Hey all. I wanted to step in and add shine a mote of light on the subject. First off, this cesation of PDF sales has absolutely nothing to do with the Internet Sales Policy. I know it's the 6th of April and I can definitely see how the two would appear linked, but the truth is, this is a completely seperate matter.
Unfortunately, the truth is that due to recent findings of illegal copying and online distribution (piracy) of our products, Wizards of the Coast has decided to cease the sales of online PDFs. We are exploring other options for digitial distribution of our content and as soon as we have any more information I'll get it to you.
Called it!!! (along with most of you guys. )
__________________ ~Joe
If you like what I said, throw me some XP. I was a goblin sharpshooter for far too long.
You're giving RPGNow the benefit of the doubt. In a situation where its almost guaranteed that they knew, when they promised you future downloads, that they couldn't actually guarantee that promise.
Why the hard line:
for one company but not the other? Particularly when only one of the companies has made promises to you?
As I said, even if RPGNow promised what it could not guarantee, WotC is taking away the redownloads that we paid for. WotC got paid by us through rpgnow for that access.
Regardless of whether rpgnow is blameless or culpatory here, WotC is taking away our access to legal pdfs we bought and that is why I am angry at WotC.
RPGNow wants to offer them to us, but they are capitulating to WotC.
WotC is taking away our stuff and doesn't want us to have it.
I don't really care what the actual contract was between them, I am more angry at the one whose goal is to take away stuff I paid them for.
WotC was not a naive supplier duped by RPGNOW into offering its products for sale. WotC is the biggest, most sophisticated entity in RPGs. WotC was fine having their stuff advertised for sale as always available up until the day they decided it was not going to be that way and got paid based on that assumption.
Giving WotC the benefit of the doubt on their contract I'm still very angry at them.
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