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The PCs are going to need to get information from a burglar. Basically "Who hired you; we need to find them, where did you meet them to negotiate/drop off the item/get paid?" But, the burglar isn't going to want to talk. The PCs intimidating/bribing the thief isn't going to get the information they want.
So I'm not sure how they could get the information from the thief in a reasonable way, given the thief's motivation.
The problem comes from this: the thief is a very skilled one - he managed to break into the vault/lab of a noble house who makes magical spy tech/super weapons, so he's clearly got the skills. However, if he talks, the thief is afraid that it will either 1) get back to the people he stole from, or 2) word will get out that he talked, and he'll gain the reputation of a squealer. If that happens, then the door is open for anyone to harass him over crimes he might have committed, and no buyer will ever trust him because he might roll over on them.
Anything the party threatens to do to him, or offers to pay him, is not worth the risk of his livelihood/his life at the hands of others down the road.
So what can my PCs do to get him to talk?
It's easy to say "His motivation is getting in the way, so don't have the NPC worry about that". That is easy, but I also want to challenge the party to come up with a solution that isn't "We'll break your face if you don't, we'll give you money if you do."
I want it to be a hint challenging, but I can't think of a solution ahead of time.
It all depends on what the PCs are willing to do to him. Maybe they will kill him if he doesn't talk. If it is not common knowledge yet he got caught maybe the PCs can promise to keep the secret of who told them and then let him go.
The guy has options. He can always talk and just say that it wasn't him. Even if there is ruumors it was people will never know the truth. If he is that good then people who need his services might not be able to find someone else to do. Wiorse case scenerio he could always go elsewhere or reinvent himself as someone else. I personlly don't see his reasoning for not talking all that convincing. But there could be more to it then you've said.
I personlly don't see his reasoning for not talking all that convincing. But there could be more to it then you've said.
Agreed. Skill Challenge with bonuses from Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, and Heal* should resolve it. People have their breaking points, and he can be convinced to squeal like a pig, and maybe it won't have to involve losing his ability to walk right.
* - For anatomy knowledge. You know, for when they start to carve out his spleen.
Brad
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The PCs are going to need to get information from a burglar. Basically "Who hired you; we need to find them, where did you meet them to negotiate/drop off the item/get paid?" But, the burglar isn't going to want to talk. The PCs intimidating/bribing the thief isn't going to get the information they want.
Perhaps if the party were to lead the Thief into believing they were going to sell his body and brain to an Aboleth, in exchange for the information it contained...
What level is the party?
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Yeah, Skill Challenge. And use high end DCs to represent the thief's resistance.
Primary Skills: Diplomacy (good cop), Intimidate (bad cop), Insight (to know why he might not be talking)
Secondary skills (that one PC could use to give a +2 to another PC's chec): Bluff (add to a good cop/bad cop), Heal (add to an intimidate), Streetwise ("look, we heard from so and so that you might be in trouble with so and so")
Basically, somewhere in that diplomacy check, the PCs are giving reason/incentive to talk despite the threat to himself (maybe they offer protection, maybe the convince him that they are about to elliminate that person so he wouldn't be a threat for long, etc)
Or in an intimidate, that is is when the PCs are saying that they are a bigger threat than this other person could ever be. etc.
OR if you're not doing 4e or skill challenges, then use the same gist (but without the skill challenge reference) -- so maybe the PCs are able to get him some local "witness protection" type thing. Maybe the PCs know of a friend/ally/priest who will let the theif hide out in the basement until it all blows over. That sort of thing.
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There is nothing wrong with you as DM setting up a solution and then having the PCs fail. Maybe they'll have to just find the information some other way. Or maybe they will come to a dead end.
There is nothing wrong with you as DM setting up a solution and then having the PCs fail. Maybe they'll have to just find the information some other way. Or maybe they will come to a dead end.
In general I don't like giving people the runaround. 'Sorry, that's just a dead end and an hour of realtime you wasted not accomplishing the obvious hook I put in your path'.
My time with this group is limited, so I don't want to waste time. But I do want to actually put some roleplaying in the game.
In general I don't like giving people the runaround. 'Sorry, that's just a dead end and an hour of realtime you wasted not accomplishing the obvious hook I put in your path'.
My time with this group is limited, so I don't want to waste time. But I do want to actually put some roleplaying in the game.
It's not that type of dead end but that might be a bad word for this. What I am talking about is just failure. The players have a chance to get the information, they just were not able to.
If they spent the hour trying to get the info and when they got it the information was worthless to them and didn't lead anywhere; that's the type of dead end that you seem to be talking about.
Perhaps if they fail, they get led into a trap rather than just fail to get information... The thief could figure out some way to lie to them that would result in his getting a chance at a rescue.
__________________ "I hurt Firewing." is not something a huge number of people can say. "He dropped a parking garage on me," on the other hand, a lot of people can say. -Kazan, my Champions GM.
Have the burglar lie to them, which sends them into a trap. At he trap is some person or clue to who is really responsible.
And, by the way, just because he's got high motivation to keep his mouth shut, does not mean he has the willpower to do so under duress. Unless he's got an indomitable will (high wisdom, on a burglar?), he may squeal.
Also remember that the PCs are many, and you are one - so the players can always out-think the GM, given time and information. Just because you have not thought of something that will get him to talk, does not mean that they won't.
And maybe the horse will sing. (Everybody knows this parable, right?)
I mean if the PC's say, "Tell us or we'll kill you." then the Thief has two options. He can refuse to talk at which point the PC's kill him and that will reduce his options considerably.
Or he can spill the beans and probably something bad will happen to him. But you never know. He could flee the city and go someplace where nobody knows him. He could go from being a Thief to being an Assassin and kill off people who had a problem with his betrayal until people stop having a problem with that. He could try and kill the PC's or lead them into an ambush before they can act on the information he gives them. Lots of things might happen if he talks.
One thing is sure to happen if he doesn't.
I might have him go the other direction. I'd have him say, "Look, if I tell you what you want to know then I'm a man marked for death. I want to avoid that death. So I will tell you absolutely anything and everything that I know, every bit of it. But you have to give me X." Where X equals a fast way out of the city, some money, immediate release, whatever will improve his odds of survival.
The situation around this is that the PCs have been walking into ambush after ambush. I want to offer them the opportunity to get the jump on the people who've been ambushing them.
This whole thing is for a change of pace, so I don't want to just serve up "more of the same".
But you make a few good points, Rel. On the other hand, I don't think the PCs would kill him, and he might have the perception to read them and get the impression they won't.
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Also remember that the PCs are many, and you are one - so the players can always out-think the GM, given time and information.
True. I just like to have an answer, so that if they hit a wall, it's not a dead-end. I hate it when I paint myself into a corner based on my own insistence of story.
I think the issue is you have hard stanced (judging by your post) the fact that the thief is not willing to talk because if he does there are scarier things awaiting him (get killed or ostracised for squealing for one).
But that's relative, the party might seem very scary themselves. If not a skill challenge, you could use opposed intimidate checks. Decide on an intimidate bonus based on the thief's fear of squealing and roll against the party.
The situation around this is that the PCs have been walking into ambush after ambush. I want to offer them the opportunity to get the jump on the people who've been ambushing them.
This whole thing is for a change of pace, so I don't want to just serve up "more of the same".
But you make a few good points, Rel. On the other hand, I don't think the PCs would kill him, and he might have the perception to read them and get the impression they won't.
True. I just like to have an answer, so that if they hit a wall, it's not a dead-end. I hate it when I paint myself into a corner based on my own insistence of story.
Well, on a successful challenge / skill check, he might give them information that is directly useful. On a failure, he might conceal some information but lead them in the right direction.
Maybe his offer is that he just delivers the goods he was supposed to steal and let him see who he is giving it too.
Basically, they have him already. That counts for a lot. He doesn't like that. He does neither want to be killed, nor beaten up, nor in prison. As long as they have him, all that are possibilities for him, so no matter how bad they suck at intimidation or how about they are in talking some sense to him, he has a goal - getting out, keeping his name clean.
Of course, if they refuse his offer, than he'll have to reconsider, and you might be back to "ambush after ambush" territory. But hey, if the PCs aren't using the options that they get, that is their problem.
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Have the players kill the thief, cast Speak With Dead, threaten to leave the body somewhere accessible and easy to find unless he co-operates. Offer the option to Raise the thief if he co-operates. Reincarnate him instead. New identity guaranteed.
*EDIT: After reading the speak with dead spell description...
Offer to kill and then Reincarnate him if he co-operates, or Animate him if he does not.
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Last edited by Herobizkit; 23rd May 2009 at 08:20 PM..
What level and classes are the PCs? What edition? Any relevant magic items beyond simple armor, weapons, and the like? We know very little about the team so far and their abilities.
Cutting a deal with the thief is the easiest way to get him to cooperate, but there's the risk they get burned. On the other hand, a thief who lures people into a trap is a dead man if they won't release him until after they've got all they want. If the thief lies, it should be a plausible lie that's close to the truth and not an outright fantasy. That way he can claim they misunderstood him if things go bad.
You could displace the roleplaying element by talking to somebody else. Perhaps there's a spellcaster who can force out the truth with some spell or ritual, but he wants favors and information in return.
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Well Rech, you need to recast the situation so that it is to the advantage of the thief from both ends of the equation. You can do that by "planting a counter-situation." That is a common aspect of undercover and anti-insurgent (counter-insurgency) work, and of turning informants.
Being an informant is dangerous work. You have to always consider at least two aspects of the operation simultaneously from the point of view of the informant. (The thief is your informant in this situation. You want him to view himself as your informant, not as a stooge or stoolie. Meaning he has to be "put to work," not "fished for goods.")
1. The first factor to consider is security. If the security risks are too high then no matter what the circumstances you cannot establish even a temporary poison of mutual advantage from the point of view of your informant.
2. The second factor to consider is profit advantage. Profit advantage means, "what will the informant gain as a condition of cooperation," and more importantly how on-going will the profit be? Will it be immediate and short term gain (and if so that is a poor counterweight to a real security threat) or will it be long term and reliable? (I stress the reliable aspect.)
Those things being the case is any situation involving developing an on-going relationship with an informant I'll make the following suggestions.
Establish an on-going and reliable "relationship" with your informant. Let him know that they can rely upon you (I say you for ease of expression, I mean your players) to hide him or assist with security threat if he brings such a threat upon himself either intentionally (as a result of his relationship with you) or accidentally. Offer to "cover him" form threats, though you must also let him know that your protection is not open-ended, but arises a result of your business relationship. You won't cover his "personal adventures and personal grudges." But stress the reliability of the security coverage.
Establish an on-going profit relationship. Ask for help which will lead to immediate mutual reward but also long-term mutual benefit. That is let him know this is not a "one-up deal" but instead offers possibilities for on-going work. Chances are he established his relationship with the other party as a matter of profit, but was led to believe this would lead to on-going work. In addition if he truly is scared of his previous employer, rather than feels loyalty to them, then there is probably already someone within that organization or group with whom he is at tension, or with whom he feels friction or would like to oust.
That being the case let him know that you will help him remove this obstacle to his advancement while simultaneously assisting him with framing the "wart" for anything he discloses. You actually kill three birds with this stone. You plant suspicion on your wart (your interorganizational target or mark), you make your informant seem more reliable and trustworthy and probably more worthy of advancement to the people in whom you "plant him," and you give your informant a chance to reap advantage from two directions at once. More work, profit, and advantage can fall to him from the other organization, while at the same time he can establish an on-going profit relationship with you. Tell him he can keep what he skims from the other guys while "shaving his wart" and by making it look like the wart is at fault (thereby making himself more secure in the other organization, while simultaneously "upping his rep" to both groups - doesn't matter that you do and should remain suspicious of him, it matters that he thinks both groups are trusting him) he actually improves his standing in the group he is "doubling." Then you also pay him and asset him in other ways so that he can see the advantage of an on-going relationship with you. He is secure while playing the double and the part of the mole (as much as possible anyways), and has greatly increased his profit advantage. there are a few other factors to consider (such as third party advantage, maybe he has family or fiends he wants protected) but this is just a game so you needn't worry about them unless they occur to you, or someone else brings them up.
If done properly then you can turn almost anybody in a similar situation.
There are two dangers to consider in this scenario of course. 1) your party is being played as the actual doubles, meaning he is a mole who is digging through their field rather than the other way around, and 2) your party will have to be "professional" or they will risk the life of their informant, and their own lives through stupid and amateurish actions that do not contribute to security and success, but actually lessen chances for success.
Then again all such actions have an inherent risk of such dangers.
The advantages are that you will open up venues for additional sub-plots, it will be good "professional experience" for your players, they will perhaps gain a valuable on-going, perhaps reliable informant, maybe even an ally for future work, and most importantly you can really role play it and really test the capabilities of your players instead of just relying upon "dumb" dice rolls to resolve dangerous and difficult situations.
If your players are inexperienced with undercover and informant operations then "plant" another NPC into the situation, as a consultant, expert (former law enforcement, military, or even experienced informant/criminal will work), or sage, to explain to them how it is done, or to give them options to pursue. Good luck.
6th level:
Fighter
Paladin (Strength based, intimidation based, not Good aligned)
Avenger
Cleric (I think he has the diplomacy skill, and if so, the only one with it)
Bard (DNPC, essentially).
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Any relevant magic items beyond simple armor, weapons, and the like?
None, really.
The PCs will find the thief because another sets up the meeting with said thief; they don't exactly have him tied to a chair, just yet. He's going to go into the meeting with the PCs expecting a client meeting, so he's not going to stumble in blindly.
Jack7, that's a really thorough and great response, but I don't know how much of it I can really use; this group is more like the A-Team, and less like Jack Bauer. The city in question, the PCs are total strangers in*, and aren't in long. They're chasing NPCs/heading on a journey, this is a stop and an opportunity to get a jump on the people who have been ambushing them. So what they can give the informant is limited.
I'm trying to work within the parameters of my group, really. Two players are real beer and pretzel types. One is more hardcore, but his character is just so aloof and focused on bringing the Avenger hammer down that he doesn't offer much in this circumstance. The final player is the Co-DM; I'm leaving in a few months, he's trying to take over the game, I'm trying to work within the confines of his existing story (and try to use his ideas in a way that actually work). This is all a fairly big railroad, but I'm trying to offer a little bit more windowdressing to the railroad, and make the trip look a little less monotonous. As I said, it has been a string of ambushes thus far - I want to give the players a few people to talk to. And as I said, I'm only with these guys for two months - so I want to move things along briskly.
*The DNPC has a small connection, but I just hate putting DNPCs in the spotlight/using their resources like that. Takes away from the players.
The city in question, the PCs are total strangers in*, and aren't in long. They're chasing NPCs/heading on a journey, this is a stop and an opportunity to get a jump on the people who have been ambushing them. So what they can give the informant is limited.
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