4e / GSL I’m Thinking of Giving 4e Another Shot

[Samuel Leming]

I’m thinking about giving D&D 4e another chance. I’ve tried to play it three times and attempted to DM it once, but playing the system as is doesn’t really match up very well with my play style. Now that most of the blatant omissions have been covered by the PH2 & MM2 I’m willing to take another look. What I’m going to try to do with this thread is to go over what I think needs to be house ruled in order to make the game fit and to get some advice from others with similar play styles on how they’ve managed to make use of 4e.

Play Style

When I play a RPG I make decisions for my character based upon what I think my character would do given the information he has in the game world situation he finds himself. That’s my goal as a player and how I have fun in these kind of games. Pursuing my own rules related goals is something that will occasionally happen, but it’s not why I play role playing games. When I was introduced to D&D back in 1977 it was sold to me on the concepts of exploration and pretending to be a fantastic character living in a fantastic world. This is the style the GNS folks have referred to as 'simulationism', but it’s always just been regular role playing to me. This is always how I played, how most of the groups I’ve gamed with over the last thirty some years have played and I know there must be at least a few others like me left here on EN World.

Martial Powers

There are many topics I would like to address, but I’ve got to start somewhere. Since the martial powers system is one of the first mackerels that slaps your suspension of disbelieve in the face I may as well start with it. It comes down to player decisions vs. character decisions. As it’s set up in the rules it’s the player that chooses to use a power such as Steel Serpent Strike based upon game tactical needs rather then the fighter choosing to press his advantage. If this 'power' is based on martial ability the fighter should be able to attempt Steel Serpent Strike however many times he needs to. As an encounter power it just doesn’t make sense in that context for the game world as it is. I need some way to justify this as a role playing decision rather than just a player tactical decision.

I’m sure I could make up some kind of bullcrap hand waving justification for why Steel Serpent Strike can only be used once per fight, but there are hundreds of these powers. I need to come of with a single unifying line of bull like the arcane spells have always had.

Ki

I’ve read here on EN World that the 4e designers have rejected the use of Ki as a power source. I think I can understand why. These martial powers are already 90% ki-like anyway. It would be just a combination of psionics and the martial power set.

So, good, this frees up the term for me to use. My solution is to replace the martial powers concept with the more mystical ki powers concept. Fighter, rogues & warlords become classes that have been trained in the mystical art of how to harness their internal ki. If a fighter decides to use his Spinning Sweep power then he’s expended his ki and can’t use that mystical power again until he rests. If he needs to knock another opponent down then he’ll have to stunt off of the system on page 42 of the DMG.

Rules as Physics

I’ve never been a rules as physics proponent. It’s a one way ticket down the bunny trail to Flatland, so that’s really not what I’m advocating here. What I’m trying to do is justify the explicit game decisions of 4e as character role playing decisions.

I’ve always regarded things like character levels and hit points as abstractions used to speed up play. They’re easy enough to justify and I’m used to justifying them so I don’t sweat them.

Treasure Parcels

Treasure parcels don’t work and will never work for the type of game I want to run or play. This concept can’t be saved and must be thrown out completely.

If an encountered monster uses a bow and that monster is defeated then the party now has that bow. The creature and its bow doesn’t just evaporate leaving behind a scroll and a +2 dagger. The creature may indeed have those items and if it has items that can be used to defend itself then it will most likely do so.

It’s up to the players how they go about acquiring their loot. If they’re skillful and lucky they may end up with more then a level’s worth of swag. Good on them. As the DM I’ll adjust. If they’re having rotten luck or have made poor choices that leave them with insufficient money for their level then I’ll have to adjust for that too. It’s part of how D&D has been played historically and I’m not going to give up on suspension of disbelief by using regulated treasure packets.

There are dozens more topics to cover, but this post is getting too long. At least for one of my posts. I’ll continue with more topics on a later day(or expand on these topics based on discussion), but hopefully this first post will serve to start some positive discussion on how to modify 4e to work with old school type D&D role playing.

[Piratecat]

You'll be happy to know that 4e now has flumph. My game is better for it.

Two suggestions:

1. Take a look at the stunt rules on page 42 of the DMG. Basically, this gives the DM guidelines for letting the players ignore their normal powers and do cool stuff that involves the environment. Kick people into fires, drop tapestries on their heads, all sorts of things. Making copious use of this may help alleviate your frustration with martial powers that are only used once a day, just because you can get a similar effect by using stunts.

2. I strongly suggest you treat the power fluff as mere guidelines, and you describe it however you like. Do you Pull someone two squares? Maybe you grab the carpet he's on and yank, or maybe you jujitsu throw him forward, or maybe you kick him in the knee and he hobbles... but concentrate on what would be cool and cinematic, and not on the pre-existing description of the mechanical effect. (This is also a rule in the DMG, but I forget the page.)

Embracing both of these has made my 4e game a lot of fun for me.

[Piratecat]

One other thought. For treasure, simply count up the total loot from all the treasure parcels normally handed out in a level. Make this total your rough guideline for the quantity of treasure to be handed out over the course of the level. That way you can hand out as much as you like, and you know whether that puts your players above or below the expected wealth and power curve. Fairly simple for the DM, and completely invisible to players.

[Inyssius]

4e has flumph, now.

On topic: bwahahahahahaha, "a positive discussion"?

Hee hee.

No, seriously, good on you. I'll be awaiting more of your posts on this topic with interest.

tl;dr version of your post, to help prevent flamewar:

• Going to give 4e another shot.
• Martial daily powers: "it's all Ki stuff in my game".
• Rules =/= physics; HP and levels are fine.
• Treasure parcels: too narrativist. Using old-school way to reward player skill.
• More later.

[Piratecat]

Originally Posted by Inyssius

On topic: bwahahahahahaha, "a positive discussion"?

Hee hee.

It will stay positive. If anyone is tempted to post just to argue instead of provide constructive solutions, please move on to the next thread instead. Trust me on this one.

[Inyssius]

Originally Posted by Piratecat

It will stay positive. If anyone is tempted to post just to argue instead of provide constructive solutions, please move on to the next thread instead. Trust me on this one.

Cool! All right, then. I look forward to everyone's posts on this topic.

[Dice4Hire]

Well 4e, more than other editions, hits you hard right between the eyes with walls of rules. Rule after rule, rules for everything except role playing.

For me it was hard at first, the first couple months, to see the potentials for roleplaying behind the rules, but after I got the rules down, then I could start looking at the game again, and clearer.

Yes, the powers can be a detriment to roleplaying, especially with the oddball names WOTC came up with. But then again, they ahd to name hundreds of pwoers. I could not have done that well. The key is to look at the spirit of the power, and not have its effects rely on pure magic. Drag the carpet, hook the guy's coat with your weapon, do whatever you like, but keep the game effect the same to avoid overblalancing the game one way or the other.

4E is worth trying and house-ruling a bit (or a lot) I found it intersting throughout the 3.x lifecycle there was a rabid fanbase of RAW, while the designers and developers themselves had oodles of houserules for the games they were playing in WOTC's own cafeteria at lunchtime.

I would tend to go with the designersand ddevelopers on this. The rules were nevermeant to be lawful-stupid RAW, and we all can see thread after thread berating WOTC for their inability to write the rules clearly enough to handle every and all situations. Odd, I tell you.

[Dice4Hire]

Originally Posted by Inyssius

Cool! All right, then. I look forward to everyone's posts on this topic.

Even mine? You are a glutton for punishment!!

[MichaelSomething]

Treasure parcels are a guideline designed to make sure PCs get the stuff they need so that they can do the things they do. If you're willing to adjust the monsters if they have more/less loot, then you should be fine. If the enchantment bonuses on the armor/weapons/neck slot are about +1 per 5 levels, then they're fine.

As for Martial powers, there are certain things you can do all the time, certain things you do once in a while, and certain things you only do once a day. Figuring out the exact conditions of what happens when would take too much work to do. Simply realize that there are conditions that exist but don't think out exactly what they are.

What's your opinion of skill challenges?

[Festivus]

You know what I did my first 4E game I ever played. I didn't even look at the rulebook beyond how to read a power, and then proceeded to just tell the DM "This is what I want my character to do... charge across the room, dive over the flaming sarcophgus and try to tackle the hobgoblin on the other side. How do I do that?"

I haven't looked back since, and I agree with PC, stunts are a really fun way to expand the game and super easy to implement on the fly.

[Scholar & Brutalman]

Originally Posted by Samuel Leming

I’m thinking about giving D&D 4e another chance.

Why? You've tried to play it three times and to DM it once and you obviously still have big problems with its basic rules philosophy. Why waste your time?

[Hairfoot]

Originally Posted by Scholar & Brutalman

Why? You've tried to play it three times and to DM it once and you obviously still have big problems with its basic rules philosophy. Why waste your time?

I agree.

But if I had to give a single recommendation to the OP, I'd say cut the fluff text off the powers. 4E is already rules-before-roleplaying. Prescribing the PCs' actions in a fight is a step toward killing the few creative opportunities that remain.

[Dire Bare]

Originally Posted by Samuel Leming

Martial Powers

There are many topics I would like to address, but I’ve got to start somewhere. Since the martial powers system is one of the first mackerels that slaps your suspension of disbelieve in the face I may as well start with it. It comes down to player decisions vs. character decisions. As it’s set up in the rules it’s the player that chooses to use a power such as Steel Serpent Strike based upon game tactical needs rather then the fighter choosing to press his advantage. If this 'power' is based on martial ability the fighter should be able to attempt Steel Serpent Strike however many times he needs to. As an encounter power it just doesn’t make sense in that context for the game world as it is. I need some way to justify this as a role playing decision rather than just a player tactical decision.

I’m sure I could make up some kind of bullcrap hand waving justification for why Steel Serpent Strike can only be used once per fight, but there are hundreds of these powers. I need to come of with a single unifying line of bull like the arcane spells have always had.

Ki

I’ve read here on EN World that the 4e designers have rejected the use of Ki as a power source. I think I can understand why. These martial powers are already 90% ki-like anyway. It would be just a combination of psionics and the martial power set.

So, good, this frees up the term for me to use. My solution is to replace the martial powers concept with the more mystical ki powers concept. Fighter, rogues & warlords become classes that have been trained in the mystical art of how to harness their internal ki. If a fighter decides to use his Spinning Sweep power then he’s expended his ki and can’t use that mystical power again until he rests. If he needs to knock another opponent down then he’ll have to stunt off of the system on page 42 of the DMG.

Heh, as I first read through this section I thought, "Simply replace the words "martial power source" with "ki power source" and you're happy? But then I realized, that's basically how I view the martial power source. In your mind, replace the word "powers" (for the martial classes) with "abilities". It can be liberating. Daily abilities are simple martial techniques your character can pull off anytime due to his training. Encounter abilities are harder abilities that require more planning, more demanding physicality, and the right conditions to pull off effectively. Daily abilities are like encounter abilities, but even more so! I also look at dailies (and some encounters) as a semi-mystical use of chi . . . or ki. You have only so much inner reserves of strength to pull off the truly badass moves. If using "ki" instead of "martial" helps, go for it.

Treasure Parcels

Treasure parcels don’t work and will never work for the type of game I want to run or play. This concept can’t be saved and must be thrown out completely.

If an encountered monster uses a bow and that monster is defeated then the party now has that bow. The creature and its bow doesn’t just evaporate leaving behind a scroll and a +2 dagger. The creature may indeed have those items and if it has items that can be used to defend itself then it will most likely do so.

It’s up to the players how they go about acquiring their loot. If they’re skillful and lucky they may end up with more then a level’s worth of swag. Good on them. As the DM I’ll adjust. If they’re having rotten luck or have made poor choices that leave them with insufficient money for their level then I’ll have to adjust for that too. It’s part of how D&D has been played historically and I’m not going to give up on suspension of disbelief by using regulated treasure packets.

The treasure parcel system exists merely to guide you and help you avoid giving too much or too little treasure. If this doesn't worry you, then you may not need it, or you can simplify it as PCat suggests. But regardless of what you choose, using treasure parcels isn't like you describe above.

The only games I've ever played where monsters drop random loot is video games. D&D in all of its versions allows for a bow-wielding monster to drop its bow for the PCs to loot! In 4e, that bow simply becomes a part of the treasure parcel for that encounter. No loot need magically disapear and no seemingly random loot need appear in the monsters pouches. A few exceptions to this are mystical weapons that are tied to the creature's form, like a Balor's sword (well, that was 3e, I don't remember specific examples in 4e, but they gotta be there).

[Dire Bare]

Originally Posted by Scholar & Brutalman

Why? You've tried to play it three times and to DM it once and you obviously still have big problems with its basic rules philosophy. Why waste your time?

Originally Posted by Hairfoot

I agree.

But if I had to give a single recommendation to the OP, I'd say cut the fluff text off the powers. 4E is already rules-before-roleplaying. Prescribing the PCs' actions in a fight is a step toward killing the few creative opportunities that remain.

Why? Because he wants to? Because tons of folks here on ENWorld and elsewhere love and enjoy this game and he is curious if he can get in on that action?

It doesn't bother me that people don't find 4e to their tastes. But there are so many folks who have a burning need to go out of their way to belittle a game they don't play . . . jeesh!

"Rules before roleplaying"?!?!?! Not in my 4e game! But then again, I didn't start playing the new game with an ax to grind. I'm puzzled when people claim 4e somehow limits their roleplaying in comparison to any previous edition of the game. I don't seem to have any problems, and I haven't used any houserules yet.

[Moridin]

Originally Posted by Samuel Leming

If this 'power' is based on martial ability the fighter should be able to attempt Steel Serpent Strike however many times he needs to. As an encounter power it just doesn’t make sense in that context for the game world as it is. I need some way to justify this as a role playing decision rather than just a player tactical decision.

A question, and a suggestion.

1) How did you justify the barbarian's rage being a certain number of times per day?

2) I tend to view martial encounter/daily powers as basically tricks, special maneuvers, etc, that are not only difficult to pull off but also rely a lot on chance to work. In that context, it's easy to see why you would only use an encounter power once per encounter: it's no easy task, and it's unlikely (but not impossible) that the chance to use it will arise again.

Originally Posted by Samuel Leming

Treasure parcels don’t work and will never work for the type of game I want to run or play. This concept can’t be saved and must be thrown out completely.

That's assuming you see treasure parcels as anything but a part of the DM backend of the game. The treasure parcels method is just a simple shortcut method for the DM to use when deciding where treasure will be over the course of a given level. It's actually the same as saying, "A party of characters of X level should get Y gp worth of treasure over the course of that level." The treasure parcel system just breaks it down into a smaller denomination ("parcels") so it's easier to seed throughout your adventure. It's a DM tool, just the same as the EL calculation tables were in 3rd Edition.

Originally Posted by Samuel Leming

If an encountered monster uses a bow and that monster is defeated then the party now has that bow. The creature and its bow doesn’t just evaporate leaving behind a scroll and a +2 dagger. The creature may indeed have those items and if it has items that can be used to defend itself then it will most likely do so.

Treasure parcels don't magically appear--you put them in the adventure as a DM. I do just what you suggest all the time; not two sessions ago I wanted to put a +2 frost longsword in the adventure I was running as treasure, so I made sure that the goliath traitor that was going to try and kill the party was carrying and using it. It's even easier if you are using a lot of monsters--the heroes find the treasure in the monster's nest, or on the corpse of a dead adventurer that that monster killed nearby. Treasure parcels are for placing around your adventure in logical ways, not for poofing into existence.

[Scholar & Brutalman]

Originally Posted by Dire Bare

Why? Because he wants to? Because tons of folks here on ENWorld and elsewhere love and enjoy this game and he is curious if he can get in on that action?

It doesn't bother me that people don't find 4e to their tastes. But there are so many folks who have a burning need to go out of their way to belittle a game they don't play . . . jeesh!

I do play, and like, 4e. But Samuel Leming didn't enjoy it the four times he tried, and a fifth attempt seems quixotic. Why not play the C&C and Pathfinder Samuel mentions in his signature, or the many other old school games that fit his playstyle.?

[Rechan]

Originally Posted by Dire Bare

I'm puzzled when people claim 4e somehow limits their roleplaying in comparison to any previous edition of the game.

What it boils down to: 4e lacks out-of-combat powers.

[Mouseferatu]

Originally Posted by Moridin

2) I tend to view martial encounter/daily powers as basically tricks, special maneuvers, etc, that are not only difficult to pull off but also rely a lot on chance to work. In that context, it's easy to see why you would only use an encounter power once per encounter: it's no easy task, and it's unlikely (but not impossible) that the chance to use it will arise again.

You can even take it a step further than this (and this is how I, personally, justify daily martial powers). All you need to is assume that said powers don't just require chance, but very specific circumstances in which they're useful. The example I've used and seen used is the Ranger power split the tree. Suppose the character learned this technique of firing two arrows at two different targets when he was a child, learning to hunt quail. But it only works if the two quail are taking off at a set distance from each other. The same holds true for enemies. While on the board, in the abstract, it works on any two enemies, in-character it requires very specific sight lines. And these are circumstances that don't arise very often, but they happen to average maybe once every three to five fights--or once a "day."

Thus, when the player decides to use it, it's a decision the PC is making, yes; but it's also the game granting the player a tiny amount of narrative control over the world, in that he's stating "Okay, this is the one time that the foes happen to be at the proper angles."

[Jack99]

Originally Posted by Piratecat

2. I strongly suggest you treat the power fluff as mere guidelines, and you describe it however you like. Do you Pull someone two squares? Maybe you grab the carpet he's on and yank, or maybe you jujitsu throw him forward, or maybe you kick him in the knee and he hobbles... but concentrate on what would be cool and cinematic, and not on the pre-existing description of the mechanical effect. (This is also a rule in the DMG, but I forget the page.)

It's actually in the PHB, page 55

A power’s flavor text helps you understand what happens when you use a power and how you might describe it when you use it. You can alter this description as you like, to fit your own idea of what your power looks like. Your wizard’s magic missile spell, for example, might create phantasmal skulls that howl through the air to strike your opponent, rather than simple bolts of magical energy.

@OP
I can't really help with the martial/Ki power source, but otherwise, it seems to me that the two things mentioned that you have issues with are just guidelines (treasure parcels & fluff). So as PC and others said, just remove/change that rule to whatever oldschool flavor.

For what it is worth, I didn't like either as well, so that's what I have done (change them) from day 1 and it works just fine (for us).

Cheers

[Dausuul]

Originally Posted by Mouseferatu

You can even take it a step further than this (and this is how I, personally, justify daily martial powers). All you need to is assume that said powers don't just require chance, but very specific circumstances in which they're useful. The example I've used and seen used is the Ranger power split the tree. Suppose the character learned this technique of firing two arrows at two different targets when he was a child, learning to hunt quail. But it only works if the two quail are taking off at a set distance from each other. The same holds true for enemies. While on the board, in the abstract, it works on any two enemies, in-character it requires very specific sight lines. And these are circumstances that don't arise very often, but they happen to average maybe once every three to five fights--or once a "day."

Thus, when the player decides to use it, it's a decision the PC is making, yes; but it's also the game granting the player a tiny amount of narrative control over the world, in that he's stating "Okay, this is the one time that the foes happen to be at the proper angles."

Doesn't really address the OP's issue, though, which is (if I understand it correctly) that there is no way for the player to be in the PC's mindset when making this decision. The tactical question involved in using a daily power is, almost always, "Do I want to burn a daily power in this fight? Is this a good time for it, or should I save it for later?"

If the opportunity to use a daily power comes from chance and specific circumstances, then the decision is a no-brainer from the character's perspective - hey, look, it's a chance to use my super-deadly uber-trick! I better seize the opportunity while it's here, I'd be an idiot not to. The decision is purely a metagame one.

I have not yet thought of a way around this problem. Closest I can come is to explain it as some kind of stamina thing; you only have so much oomph in you per day, then you have to rest. But this doesn't explain why you can't swap out your daily powers, i.e., use power X twice instead of power X once and power Y once.