Mearls talks about his inspiration for the 4e classes

[Keefe the Thief]

Over at RPG.net, someone started a thread for creating a "Appendix N - suggested reading" for 4e. Some people used that as an incentive to post about what they think can inspire you for 4e and what they think has inspired 4e.

In post #11, Mearls talks about his inspiration for designing the 4e classes

[Hussar]

Interesting read. Good catch.

[Thanee]

Ranger: Surprise! Drizzt was a big inspiration for the design direction...

So, Drizzt was (in part) the inspiration for the D&D Ranger, but Drizzt is a D&D Ranger, so the (old school) D&D Ranger is the inspiration for the D&D Ranger.

Bye
Thanee

[Relique du Madde]

Originally Posted by Thanee

So, Drizzt was (in part) the inspiration for the D&D Ranger, but Drizzt is a D&D Ranger, so the (old school) D&D Ranger is the inspiration for the D&D Ranger.

Bye
Thanee

*Head Explodes*

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by Relique du Madde

*Head Explodes*

Relique, your head does that a lot! You should ask a doctor about it.

[Relique du Madde]

I did... but he mistook what I meant..

[Aus_Snow]

Originally Posted by mearls @ RPGnet

Invoker: As this class shaped up, it became increasingly clear that Gandalf was our best model, both from Tolkien's books and Jackson's film version.

Does this make any sense to any of you 4e-heads? That is not, by the way, a confrontational query! I simply don't know anything about the Invoker. Um, except the name, and that it's not in the core 3. . . and this new reveal from Mr. Mearls.

So. Why (or even how) is the Invoker anything like Gandalf?

[Plane Sailing]

Originally Posted by Aus_Snow

Does this make any sense to any of you 4e-heads? That is not, by the way, a confrontational query! I simply don't know anything about the Invoker. Um, except the name, and that it's not in the core 3. . . and this new reveal from Mr. Mearls.

So. Why (or even how) is the Invoker anything like Gandalf?

I was thinking this myself. Apart from uber-geeks, it seems likely to me that Gandalf should be the quintessential wizard - probably the most well known 'fantasy wizard' alongside merlin.

(caveat: while I like about half of the PHB2 classes, I can't stand the invoker which seemed like merely a reason to do a 'divine controller' aka divine wizard. It seems to me to be a 'fill in the grid' class, which I have no value for. Especially since its at-will powers out-shine the wizard)

Cheers

[Nymrohd]

Considering Gandalf was a creature of light send by the gods and Merlin was mostly a druid with some arcane spells, no neither of the archetype wizards was actually a wizard . . .

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by Plane Sailing

I was thinking this myself. Apart from uber-geeks, it seems likely to me that Gandalf should be the quintessential wizard - probably the most well known 'fantasy wizard' alongside merlin.

(caveat: while I like about half of the PHB2 classes, I can't stand the invoker which seemed like merely a reason to do a 'divine controller' aka divine wizard. It seems to me to be a 'fill in the grid' class, which I have no value for. Especially since its at-will powers out-shine the wizard)

Cheers

The "problem" is that neither Merlin or Gandalf are quintessential Wizards as described by D&D. Merlin and Gandalf don't cast fireballs. (Maybe Pyrotechncs, in Gandalfs case).
Moreover, Gandalf specifically is not a "Human Wizard" but a kind of angelic creature, if I understand the Middleearth lore correctly.

Invokers have powers that often thematically inspire "awe" - Utility Powers that grant you bonuses to Intimidate/Diplomacy, powers that force the enemy to hold back or suffer damage, powers that an enemy can avoid if he falls to his knees before the Invoker. That is the kind of powers that fit to Gandalf. Especially thinking of the movies. The scene where he raises his voice with terifying side effects, the time where he rides into battle parallel to the suns first beams.

It is not a perfect match, but it is an inspiration, not a copy-cat.

[Mouseferatu]

Originally Posted by Mustrum_Ridcully

Moreover, Gandalf specifically is not a "Human Wizard" but a kind of angelic creature, if I understand the Middleearth lore correctly.

In fact, if I were creating a "D&D Gandalf," not only would I make him an invoker, but I'd probably make him a deva, not a human. (Again, as you say, it's not a perfect match, but there's definitely thematic overlap.)

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by Mouseferatu

In fact, if I were creating a "D&D Gandalf," not only would I make him an invoker, but I'd probably make him a deva, not a human. (Again, as you say, it's not a perfect match, but there's definitely thematic overlap.)

With that agreed and raising the topic of Devas, my question would be - how would you build "The Doctor". (Of course accepting that he will necessarily be far more violent in nature than the "real" Doctor is.*) [/tangent]

The Doctor doesn't kill people and take their stuff. He gets some people killed but then figures stuff out, thwarts the villains and saves the world*.
**Whatever world is around at that time.

[Mouseferatu]

Originally Posted by Mustrum_Ridcully

With that agreed and raising the topic of Devas, my question would be - how would you build "The Doctor".

Off the top of my head? (And understanding, as always, that we're looking for "a rough thematic match," not "a perfect recreation"...)

I'd probably say deva for race, and for class I'd go with a hybrid of the psion and the artificer. (Or possibly whatever the psionic leader turns out to be, if it winds up not being inappropriate, to better mesh with the artificer and to better focus on his "inspirational" abilities.)

Edit: I've started a new thread, where we can explore more of the "how to create Character X" ideas without derailing this any further.

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by Mouseferatu

Off the top of my head? (And understanding, as always, that we're looking for "a rough thematic match," not "a perfect recreation"...)

I'd probably say deva for race, and for class I'd go with a hybrid of the psion and the artificer. (Or possibly whatever the psionic leader turns out to be, if it winds up not being inappropriate, to better mesh with the artificer and to better focus on his "inspirational" abilities.)

Edit: I've started a new thread, where we can explore more of the "how to create Character X" ideas without derailing this any further.

*scribble notes* I should try that. My first takes were Deva Wizard and Human Wizard, focusing on illusions, with lots of Skill Training, Jack of all Trades, Linguist... But that was before the Psion and before the EPG. (My goal was to get the Planeshifter Paragon Path, because that one befits someone traveling in time and space.)

Now better back to our original topic. Ahem.

[Baz King]

Originally Posted by Keefe the Thief

Over at RPG.net, someone started a thread for creating a "Appendix N - suggested reading" for 4e.

That someone was me. I'm really glad Mike came by to contribute. A brave decision in some ways.

I think I'll try the same thread here and see who bites.

[Plane Sailing]

My point is made, geek-dom

Of course people here know that Gandalf is really an angelic being with powers from a magic ring.

But, to the world at large, he is a wizard. He is continually described as a wizard. That's why he is an odd inspiration to use for a divine class.

[FDM]

Originally Posted by Plane Sailing

My point is made, geek-dom

Of course people here know that Gandalf is really an angelic being with powers from a magic ring.

But, to the world at large, he is a wizard. He is continually described as a wizard. That's why he is an odd inspiration to use for a divine class.

But it's not overt. It isn't like they reference him in the Invoker class description. In light of that, what was used as inspiration isn't relevant to the fans who don't know about Gandalf's divine roots.

[Obryn]

Originally Posted by Aus_Snow

Does this make any sense to any of you 4e-heads? That is not, by the way, a confrontational query! I simply don't know anything about the Invoker. Um, except the name, and that it's not in the core 3. . . and this new reveal from Mr. Mearls.

So. Why (or even how) is the Invoker anything like Gandalf?

I get the comparison.

In LotR, Gandalf is a lot more of a divine figure than a simple wizard. He doesn't have a spellbook, he doesn't have a tower, and his magic is usually not flashy. Instead, whenever he does something supernatural, it's calling upon his divine nature... You know, Keeper of the Flame of Udun, etc.

I don't necessarily think Gandalf when I think Invoker though. Frankly, I think Moses is a better model for the class.

-O

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by Plane Sailing

My point is made, geek-dom

Of course people here know that Gandalf is really an angelic being with powers from a magic ring.

But, to the world at large, he is a wizard. He is continually described as a wizard. That's why he is an odd inspiration to use for a divine class.

And people not here have never seen Wizard cast Fireball or Lightning Bolt or Bibgy's Clenching Fist or Mage Armor. And not even something close to it. The D&D Wizard (and not just the D&D Wizard - most RPG Wizards) is not Gandalf or Merlin.

[Kamikaze Midget]

I wonder if the actual wizard had any wizardy inspiration. Not that cribbing Gandalf for the Invoker makes him illegal to use as a wizard, of course, but D&D wizards haven't been very Gandalf-y ever.

I also wonder if mearls's experience of fantasy inspiration coming later is something that the rest of the team had, as well -- in other words, that they might start with, say, a mechanical inspiration or a 3e class that needs an analogue, and only worry about the fantasy you can distil from that after the initial inspiration.

Something like "We need a healer who is not the cleric" -> Warlord, or "We have all these neat cleric attack spells that didn't get used" -> Invoker/Avenger.

I also wonder how much their inspiration matches the ideas that come later. Thinking about it after mearls's comment, Gandalf = Invoker makes some sense, but before then, what was Gandalf to you in D&D? And what was the Invoker?