Third Party: If So, Then What?

[GMSkarka]

Recently, there's been discussion of the impact of 4E on third-party support. Not many signed on, due to the terms of the GSL, and those that did (or chose non-licensed support) saw that official WOTC tools like the DDI had an adverse effect on sales -- as has been said, there's no point in doing character or rules options if they can't be reflected in the DDI.

We've seen a lot of companies cancel their 4E lines entirely, or just shut their doors, and in recent threads on the topic, a large percentage of 4E fans have expressed no interest in third-party product at all.


For those 4E fans that do want third-party support, however --- I'm sure that my fellow publishers would love to know: Given the status quo (no implementation into DDI, etc.), what exactly would you like to see from third-party publishers?

[GreatLemur]

Well, what I'd really like is for WotC to open up the Character Builder's API to us all, but assuming that ain't gonna happen, I think it only makes sense for third-party publishers to focus on producing adventures, adventure components (monsters, traps, skill challenges, terrain types / map features, etc.), and campaign settings.

Really, I think there's a dire need for a big skill challenge tool kit book (featuring both sample skill challenges and big menus of possible success and failure effects to spice up custom challenges), and I'm kinda shocked WotC hasn't published one already. Also, I really dig the gimmick terrains from the DMG2, and think that we could really do with a hell of a lot more to choose from. Why not sell a big book of those complete with map tiles?

Unfortunately, the Character Builder really locks third-party publishers out of the (much larger) non-DM segment of the D&D 4e market. All I could suggest for players would be non-mechanical PC aids like collections of character portraits or books of character concept ideas and other roleplay inspiration.

[ScorpiusRisk]

I'll reiterate a bit from a recent thread. There are a few big things I expect in a third party product in order for me, personally, to be interested.

I don't want more player options, unless it's heavily themed or maybe interesting items/vehicles. Feats, classes, Paths, powers are all to hard to keep track of an implement, and we've got a multitude of options in the DDI.

I expect it to be cheaper than a WotC product. If that means cheaper paper, binding or that its a download, that's ok.

I need to be able to preview the content online. That does not mean a summary, it means being able to see actual pages or sections from the book.

Finally, it needs to be heavily themed or offer something Wizards of the Coast does not. I don't have a problem buying Monster books, but they can be such a grab bag that I want to make sure I can use them. A book of ghosts, desert creatures, or alien menaces are much more appealing than a general selection of Monster I hopefully don't already have.

Some examples of things WotC doesn't do would be something like the Toolbox from AEG, which is primarily a prep or improvisational tool. Or even something that Wizards does but only in small amounts. A guide to designing and populating cities would be interesting. Or a guide that lets players build fortresses and towers with pricing.

[Jack99]

I want 3pp's who actually understand the rules they are writing for. Way too many of the products released for 4e have been of pretty shoddy quality, crunch-wise.

After that, I would love adventures and settings.

[ggroy]

I would be interested in more 4E adventure modules produced by 3PPs. Though in terms of content and quality, I would be looking for modules that are at least as good as the 4E modules Goodman Games has produced so far (ie. Dungeon Crawl Classics, etc ...).

To a lesser degree, I may be interested in 3pp 4E settings which are not excessively heavy with 3pp specific crunch. At the present time, I'm using the non-4E Pathfinder Golarion setting for my 4E game. Many of the Golarion setting supplement books are relatively crunch lite, such as the region books.

I will probably pick up the upcoming 4E Freeport Companion book, and use it with the system-free Freeport books. For other upcoming 4E 3pp setting books, I'll have take a look through them before deciding whether I'm interested. My main determination is whether I can use a setting straight out of the box, or whether there will be resistance due to lots of 3pp setting specific crunch being absent from the DDI. For the players in my 4E game, they've been so spoiled by the DDI character builder that a lot of player specific 3pp crunch has been largely "invisible" to them. If something is not in the DDI character builder, they will not use it at all.

[Crothian]

Originally Posted by GMSkarka

what exactly would you like to see from third-party publishers?

I don't know. Back in 3e days I didn't know I wanted Goodman games to give the DCC line or Necromancer to do their great modules. I didn't know I wanted Green Ronin to do those great historical books as well as give me the greatest Super Hero game. I'm looking for the publishers to give me something I don't yet know I want.

[Obryn]

I've said it before, and it may be a pipe-dream, but I like non-standard, non-generic settings.

My favorite purchases under the OGL/d20 STL were settings and supplements for those settings. While I have no use for generic character crunch, I love character crunch for new settings that fit in with a setting's themes.

I have zero use for generic player-oriented crunch. (No new classes, Paragon Paths, feats, or races that aren't designed for a specific new third-party setting.) DM-oriented crunch is dandy, but you have to convince me it's giving me something more - or something better - than I'm getting from WotC. This means reasonably solid mechanics, unique flavors, and fresh perspectives. I don't have any use for 100 poorly-made monsters, or 100 more monsters which offer me nothing more interesting than I've already gotten from WotC.

I like modules, so long as I have a reason to run them. If I'm getting no better than I'm getting from WotC, odds are I'll just stick with the stuff I'm getting from WotC. I also buy them on an as-needed basis; if I don't need one, I won't buy one.


For illustration, my favorite stuff I bought under the OGL/d20 STL were...

* Wilderlands Box Set (+ several supplements for it, one of which is a Least Favorite)
* Arcana Unearthed/Evolved (most of the product line for both, one of which is a Least Favorite)
* Monte Cook's Chaositech (DM crunch with awesome and unique flavor)
* Black Company Campaign Setting
* Testament
* A few DCC's.
* Tome of Horrors

My least favorite, least-used stuff I bought under OGL/d20 STL were...

- Complete Book of Eldritch Might
- Arcana Evolved Spell Treasury (although it was part of the above, it also broke many things)
- Wilderlands Player's Guide (reprinted information, and shoddy mechanics)
- Pretty much all non-Tome-of-Horrors 3rd-party monster books, including Creature Catalogs.

Everything else was pretty middling stuff that I may have enjoyed but which I never used. I would be unlikely to buy more stuff in this category, either - WotC is doing a better job of giving me stuff I want this edition than it was last time around.

So yeah. Basically, I want something I'm not already getting from WotC. But it also has to be high-caliber, with solid mechanics.

-O

[Henrix]

I'd be interested in adventures that aren't like WotCs - i.e. not just dungeon crawls.

(Nothing wrong with a good crawl, but a little variation is fine.)

[Mistwell]

Adventures.

[Zephrin the Lost]

Encounters! 4e encounters rely on terrain, hazards, and encounter groups. Strong encounters can be hard to do off the cuff. Dungeon Delve was great but something with even more generic, yet adaptable encouters would be great- an urban ambush, or some quick lairs, etc, scaled for different levels, that DM's could not only drop in anywhere but learn from (that last part means they need to be great stuff).

[davethegame]

I agree with most of the posters above. I don't need new classes, feats, powers, items... I don't even care that much about new monsters (and if a product does include new monsters, it would be awesome to have those available as downloads to import into Monster Builder, but I have no idea of the legality of that.)

I need new adventures and settings. Use the abundance of rules and options that WotC already has out instead of adding to it with often imperfect results. I'd be perfectly happy buying an adventure with an interesting story that used nothing but Monster Manual monsters.

Also, I love poster maps and similar, so anything that includes that gets an automatic bonus from me.

After a first few 3rd party products that I obtained (some of which for free for review purposes) I decided I didn't need to touch 3pp at all due to some very questionable quality and understanding of the rules. But I would love some more takes on how to use the existing rules for my game.

[CarpBrain]

I'd like to see some strong thematic adventures. I was really interested in Adamant's announced Against the Air Pirates, but that seems to have disappeared.

[Mouseferatu]

I'll echo the "adventures and campaign settings" call, not only as a consumer, but as a designer. Specifically, adventures and settings of a sort that Wizards isn't currently producing. Whether that means non-traditional fantasy, more of a "mature" focus, different cultures, different assumptions, whatever. These should have some new mechanics, but they should be heavily focused on the themes/details of the adventure or campaign setting.

I (obviously) have no idea if such things would sell, but I know that I'd love the opportunity to work on such things, and that it's these that I'd consider buying from a 3rd-party company.

[GreatLemur]

Now that I think about it, there are some places where 4e could use some new subsystems that wouldn't be in much danger of stepping on WotC's toes. Things like a crafting system, or rules for naval combat, etc.

Originally Posted by Zephrin the Lost

Encounters! 4e encounters rely on terrain, hazards, and encounter groups. Strong encounters can be hard to do off the cuff. Dungeon Delve was great but something with even more generic, yet adaptable encouters would be great- an urban ambush, or some quick lairs, etc, scaled for different levels, that DM's could not only drop in anywhere but learn from (that last part means they need to be great stuff).

This is a great point, here. Encounters--clever little set pieces complete with statblocks and interesting maps--could be a lot more widely useful than adventures. DMs could string them together to make adventures, or keep them on hand for random encounters. Notes on how to adjust each encounter for higher or lower levels would be extremely handy, of course.

[JeffB]

Printed adventures THAT ARE NOT ADVENTURE PATHS

Thats my only real priority, though the "right" campaign helper type supplements would be considered i.e. Generic city/town or a generic "adventure region" like Bards Gate from Necro, The Haunted Highlands from TLG, etc.

[Truename]

Another call for really great adventures or encounters, particularly those that are more sophisticated than WoTC's. I'm currently running Scales of War, which is fine as far as it goes, but I'm starting to get an urge for something with more there there. (The recent Epic level adventure by David Noonan was a massive disappointment. Took a brilliant setting and turned it into generic mush.)

I don't want crunch because I don't trust 3pps to get it right. I don't need fluff because I'm running an adventure path. I want new adventures that will inspire me with better ideas about how to run the game, even if I don't ever run them, and that I can potentially drop into my SoW game in place of some of the more craptastic episodes.

[garyh]

Originally Posted by Mouseferatu

I'll echo the "adventures and campaign settings" call, not only as a consumer, but as a designer. Specifically, adventures and settings of a sort that Wizards isn't currently producing. Whether that means non-traditional fantasy, more of a "mature" focus, different cultures, different assumptions, whatever. These should have some new mechanics, but they should be heavily focused on the themes/details of the adventure or campaign setting.

I (obviously) have no idea if such things would sell, but I know that I'd love the opportunity to work on such things, and that it's these that I'd consider buying from a 3rd-party company.

I'd also enjoy such products as a consumer. Ideas are much more valuable than crunch, especially since crunch can't be integrated into WotC's DDI tools.

[Glyfair]

Originally Posted by GMSkarka

Recently, there's been discussion of the impact of 4E on third-party support. Not many signed on, due to the terms of the GSL, and those that did (or chose non-licensed support) saw that official WOTC tools like the DDI had an adverse effect on sales -- as has been said, there's no point in doing character or rules options if they can't be reflected in the DDI.

I noticed that much of the early 4E third party content was player oriented. Some of that may have been the OGL theory that if you give content to players you have more potential customers.

I admit, I saw that content and gave it all a pass, regardless of the company. I didn't want the classes, races, etc. for 4E. WotC gave me enough, and the only "player" product I bought was the Advanced Player's Guide (which I bought, and offered my players use of, and none took me up on it).

For those 4E fans that do want third-party support, however --- I'm sure that my fellow publishers would love to know: Given the status quo (no implementation into DDI, etc.), what exactly would you like to see from third-party publishers?

So, that leads to the main question. I have answered it before, but I will reiterate it, and expand perhaps a bit.

I want adventures. The OGL gave us a lot of adventures that grabbed you, especially early on (Freeport, Witchfire Trilogy, half of Atlas Games products, most of Necromancer games). I really haven't seen that at all.

I also don't really want adventures that ignore the 4E parameters. That doesn't mean don't experiment. However, don't decide you dislike all the core assumptions of 4E adventure design that WotC set up and just write a 3E (or older) adventure with 4E stats. Pick and choose where you go in a different direction. Also, when you break away, don't always go back* in D&D history. try going in different directions. Go forward to ground breaking territory, or go sideways into areas that have been covered in other games but not D&D.

I want products that support running a campaign that aren't directly adventures. Personally I am not interested in campaign settings, but I might be interested in smaller campaigns (cities, valleys, etc). Others might want campaign settings, though, and it certainly is an area that WotC hasn't discouraged too much.

Some of my favorite OGL products were things like Atlas' En Route series, Necromancers' Book of Taverns (thanks Clark), and similar books. Give me things I can drop into my existing homebrew, or published setting without too much work.

Also, don't forget the creative non-systemic products. Paizo has dominated this area, I admit (partially by snapping up distribution of those other companies have developed). Adventures or locations with battle maps, tiles, miniatures, 3D terrain, etc. with 4E stats can gain traction if creative enough, and priced correctly.

[darjr]

There was a bunch of buzz, on the net and locally, for BlackMoor. The living campaign is what helped me here locally generate some buzz, I have players waiting for the campaign to start and the new book/books to come out.

So... a living campaign. I'll buy the books to support it, and I'll probably get a few others to as well.

The other thing I'd very much like to see is adventures. I am really spoiled by the WotC RPGA. I mean really. Something like Dungeon a day but more spread out. Something that would start to flesh out a sandbox hybrid with some interwoven stories.

Maybe a mini path or two in that sandbox, but also lots of encounters and short adventures I could pull, yoink, or mix and match.

[Holy Bovine]

Adventures and campaign settings are about the only thing I would look at for 3PP.