Forked - Flatfooted and the beginning of combat.

[Celebrim]

(This is an aside to the thread, and I won't be pursuing it further. (Thus no fork.) If you're just interested in the main topic, you can safely skip this.)

You're partially correct, but partially incorrect.

Intiative is rolled at "the start of each battle." (All quotes are from the SRD.) 3.5 isn't perfectly clear on when a "battle" starts, but it's pretty clear that attempts at parley aren't the start of battle, and nor is a villain's soliloquy. An encounter, in short, is not the same thing as a battle.

As a DM, I call for initiative whenever any party in the encounter does something that any opposed party has a chance to perceive as hostile. I suspect that nearly every DM uses this metric, even if he or she hasn't given it much thought.

A given combatant is flat-footed "before [he has] had a chance to act (specifically, before [he has had his] first regular turn in the initiative order)."

So, yes, heroes can interrupt a grandstanding villain by declaring a hostile action, at which point all involved roll initiative. If the heroes beat the villain on initiative, yes, the villain is flat-footed. (Not "surprised." Flat-footed and surprised are separate concepts for a reason.) Part of the very point of initiative is to determine who is caught slower on the draw when hostilities erupt.

What does this mean in practice? Well, a few things:

You can't walk around with a permanently readied action. You can't even ready an action while a villain is giving his speech. You cannot ready an action out of combat.

You can raise your bow and point it unswervingly at the villain (and I'd recommend it; it's certainly what I'd do!), but the millisecond you twitch with the intent to release that nocked arrow, the DM should call for initiative.

If you want the heroes to listen to the soliloquy, you need to give them reasons to do so. In the past, for instance, not listening to the Big Bad in my game has led to the unintended (by the heroes) death of innocents. There are all sorts of reasons to listen: information, because it's just interesting, because the heroes are amazed that the villain is this freakin' crazy, whatever.

But if the heroes have no reason to listen to the villain, then it's stupid for the heroes to listen to the villain. One of them should declare he's shooting the villain in the throat! "Roll for initiative!"

Well, Jeff says he's not interested, but I am. The reasoning that Jeff describes is one of my principle irritations with PCs, because if we follow this reasoning to its logical conclusion it slows the game down to a crawl and makes roleplaying unnatural and stilted, to say nothing of encouraging anti-social PC behavior. It's nothing but rules lawyering and lifting rules out of context.

While 3rd edition makes no effort to describe what marks the start of an enounter or battle, prior editions of D&D have described the process in great detail. Third edition also describes very accurately the process of surprise, noting that neither party can be surprised if the other is aware of the other. Prior editions agree with this general statement and differ only over the mechanics. In third edition this awareness is through the 'Spot' (or sometimes 'Listen') mechanic.

So let us break down the situation. We have a potential adversary - a Bandit Lord and his minions - and a PC party. Suppose the encounter occurs on the road. It could be anywhere, but let's suppose the road to begin with. The Bandit Lord rides out of the woods some 300' down the road (or 1500' feet, or 30' feet, it doesn't matter really). Both the PC's and the Bandit Lord make their spot checks. Both see the other, and neither is surprised. Either side could act hostilely immediately now, and if winning the initiative could catch the other flat footed for a moment, but this is unlikely to happen as the PC's don't know the Bandit Lord and his men from the King's Huntsman or a group of noble Rangers at this point.

Now, we have one of two ways of proceeding. If we wanted to be petty about the rules, we ought roll initiative now whether the approaching party is bandits, rangers, or the king's huntsman. Then we ought to proceed normally with rounds, with each side declaring thier actions in turn. It really doesn't matters what actions that the participants want to take in those rounds, whether it is parlaying, fighting, or sitting down to take ones boots off. All those are actions allowed within the framework of a 'round'. The universe doesn't know what a round is for and so create rounds out of the ether when a fight begins and discard them when talking is going on. We do that for convience only. A round is only a convienent period of game time in which a character can perform a meaningful action. Rounds in this since are occurring all the time, we just don't bother to bog the game down keeping track of all of them.

It's quite clear if we proceed in this fashion, that on the first round the bandits (or huntsman or whatever) turn down the road, take their 40' move and ready an action in preperation for possible hostilities. It's quite clear that the PC's do something of a the same, and since both have acted, even though we are 220' apart and doing no more than talking or other actions that aren't attack actions, neither side can catch the other flatfooted. They are prepared. They are carefully observing the other. The slightest flinch brings some sort of reflex and reaction. Both observe the other with a wary eye, like the henchmen of two mob bosses who don't like each other but who must meet in some out of the way place. The idea of at this point reacting and catching the other side unprepared is to be fully frank, nothing less than ridiculous. You may reacting and go first (or not) but you certainly can't catch the other side at that point unready for battle and hostilities because they've had half a minute or more to prepare and ready themselves for just that. (Unless, of course, you have a feat like 'flick of the wrist' that lets you do just that.)

And, it's equally clear that we can in fact walk around with a readied action if we want to. No rule prevents it. No rule prevents us from arbitrating every game day by going through the motions of 14400 rounds except for the fact that it would be tedious to do so. We can easily imagine an archer walking down a corridor with a notched bow and the readied action 'if anything steps in front of me, I'm going to shoot'. In fact, in some cases this is the only way the game rules can handle certain situations - for example, suppose the archer wants to watch for traffic on an intersecting corridor. Unless you can hold a readied action indefinately, any being could arrange so that it was impossible to shoot them simply by arranging so that they never ended their turn standing in the corridor - which of course defies common sense and kills the very sort of simulation of ordinary situations we invent rules for in the first place.

And I add, that not only is this in accordance to reason and common sense, this is pretty much the way the game has always been.

So, now that we know that two parties can't surprise the other once we they are aware of each other, the sensible thing is to dispence with the interruption of game mechanics (and the danger that presents to immersion) until such time as its actually relevant. It doesn't really matter whether we roll initiative when the two parties first meet, or after we've resolved that fighting will actually occur so long as we remember that we didn't begin to count time at 'roll for initiative', but that an endless procession of rounds stretches before we ever get to 'roll for initiative'.

Now, it's certainly true that if the villain goes into a speach that stretches across several rounds, that the players may interrupt such a speach at any time and knock a bow and proceed to unleash hell, but unless we run the game with the ridiculous notion that against a foe well aware of the characters and alert to the possibility of hostilities that this will somehow catch them 'flat footed' its quite probable that such silliness wouldn't arise since in most cases the only reason it happens is the PC expects a mechanical reward for their 'ruthlessness'.

Now, does all that mean that its impossible to catch people that are aware of you offguard and flat footed? No. It merely means that its impossible to catch people on their gaurd off their gaurd. If one side or the other prepares a suitable distraction, and gets the other side to relax and be at their ease so that they are no longer on gaurd, then perhaps, 'I pull out a weapon and attack' might meaningfully catch someone flat footed for a moment. But generally, that's not what is going on.

 

[Hussar]

And, it's equally clear that we can in fact walk around with a readied action if we want to. No rule prevents it.

In 3.5, this is specifically prohibited by the rules. You cannot ready an action outside of combat. The DM determines when combat begins and when it ends, not the player. Thus, you cannot have the orcs have readied actions on the other side of the door, just waiting for you to open it - thus getting the readied action, then a surprise action and possibly a third action if they win initiative.

 

[Celebrim]

In 3.5, this is specifically prohibited by the rules. You cannot ready an action outside of combat.

I only have the 3.0 PH handbook, and I didn't see this in the 3.5 SRD.

The DM determines when combat begins and when it ends, not the player. Thus, you cannot have the orcs have readied actions on the other side of the door, just waiting for you to open it...

Nonetheless, even if we grant that it is true that the 'DM determines when combat begins and when it ends, not the player' (which I don't because it implies the PC can have the intention to engage in combat but the DM can refuse), you end up contridicting yourself. Nothing prevents the following legal sequence of events:

1) The PC's make a loud sound.
2) The DM rolls a listen check for the orcs in the next room, who now are aware of the PC's.
3) The DM rolls initiative for the orcs (the orcs are 'in combat', because the DM now must track how they use resources 'round by round', imagine the alternative if you disagree).
4) On the next round the PC's do something. On the next round the orcs move to cover and ready an action to fire their crossbows at whoever opens the door.
5) The PC's take several more rounds worth of actions. On each round the orcs take the same ready action.
6) Some PC opens the door unaware of the orcs (and thus flatfooted), and the orcs fire.

All your criteria are met. The DM determined when combat began, not the PC's. Initiative was rolled at the 'beginning of battle', and no ready actions where made 'outside of combat' which is a meaningless phrase anyway, particularly if 'the DM can decide when combat begins'. You seem to think that D&D operates with a combat subsystem like Ultima IV, Exile, DarkStone or something, were a button is clicked and all the sudden the physics of the world changes. There is no need for that. And from the above, it ought to be clear what is wrong with the following statement:

- thus getting the readied action, then a surprise action and possibly a third action if they win initiative.

It won't happen if you follow the rules. They'll still get a maximum of two initial actions, the readied action and an additional one if they win initiative. There is no surprise round because there is no oppurtunity for a surprise round (it was passed way back at the listen check). But what is more important to notice is that the 'surprise round' is nothing more than a different way of looking at exactly what I just outlined. A surprise round is nothing more than the readied action that was taken by the situationally aware side just before the first round of combat.

Now, let's look at what happens if you ignore that. Suppose the party is aware of some orcs in the distance, and they use their 'surprise round' to hide. One of several awkward interpretations now will rule the day if we ignore the above logic. Either the orcs can now not be ambushed despite the fact that they remain unaware of the party, because they've technically taken some action and are thus no longer flatfooted (though still not aware!), or else the party will be able to now attack as a full round action on the following round with the orcs flatfooted effectively getting a 'super surprise round' (to say nothing of what they could do to game the initiative count if the orcs are now forced to roll for initiative). Neither is desirable, and both use bits of the rules in isolation to break the letter of the law and do things that supposedly you can't do (like take full actions on a surprise round or gaurantee that you always win initiative when you have surprise), whereas my reading ultimately leads to the expected outcome.

1) 'Beginning of battle' means, "when the side becomes aware of the other"
2) A party not already engaged in combat can at most only be attacked by a half action before it becomes aware, thus rolling initiative and beginning to take actions. There is no 'super surprise'.
3) A party that becomes aware stops being flatfooted on its next action, regardless of whether 'hostilities' have formally begun and remains on gaurd unless cozened into dropping its guard or it ceases to be aware. You can't surprise an aware party nor catch them flatfooted. Just because you are 'ruthless' doesn't grant you super-speed.

 

[pedr]

You roll intiative when both sides are aware of the other and at least one side is planning to take hostile action (i.e. there will be 'combat'). If one side is aware and the other is not, and the aware side plans to take a hostile action, the aware side rolls initiative, takes their surprise-round actions in initiative order, and then the unaware side rolls initiative and the first full round starts. You don't roll intiative (though you may track rounds) if only one side is aware of the other but is not taking hostile actions. Of course if the non-hostile actions they take make the other side aware, you may need to roll initiative - but I'd delay that until there was the possibilty of actual hostile action between the sides.

The PH states that you cannot ready an action outside combat. The DMG goes through the initiative trigger conditions, if I recall correctly. There is a problem with 'surprise' and sudden switches from non-hostile discussion to hostile action - the RAW does not seem to permit that, as because both sides are aware of each other when combat begins there is no surprise round. Initiative perhaps measures how quickly you can react when someone you can see begins to take a hostile action, so they go to loose their bow and you draw and throw a dagger a split second before their arrow gets into flight.

 

[delericho]

We can easily imagine an archer walking down a corridor with a notched bow and the readied action 'if anything steps in front of me, I'm going to shoot'. In fact, in some cases this is the only way the game rules can handle certain situations - for example, suppose the archer wants to watch for traffic on an intersecting corridor. Unless you can hold a readied action indefinately, any being could arrange so that it was impossible to shoot them simply by arranging so that they never ended their turn standing in the corridor

Firstly, leaving a bow or crossbow readied for long periods like that is a very quick way to destroy your bow or crossbow.

Secondly, how can someone "arrang(e) so that they never ended their turn standing in the corridor" when they have no way to knowing when one round ends and another begins?

Leaving those aside, the rules actually do handle that situation:

The situation: There an archer in a corridor, intent on shooting whoever crosses the intersection. A goblin approaches the intersection. Understandably, he doesn't want to get shot.

First: Check if either side is surprised. In this case, this will generally mean Listen checks vs Move Silently. (The archer should probably get a bonus because he's not moving; he should certainly get some bonus because he's presumably actively trying to be quiet, whereas the Goblin probably isn't.)

If the Goblin is surprised but the archer isn't, then the archer knows someone is coming, readies his action in the surprise round, and automatically gets to shoot.

If the archer is surprised but the Goblin isn't, then the archer definately doesn't get to shoot. He should have been paying more attention. (Is this really a problem?)

If both sides are surprised, or neither is, then we begin the first regular round. Remember: both Goblin and archer know that the other is there.

Second: Roll for initiative.

If the archer wins, he gets to take his shot. On his turn he gets to ready his action; when the Goblin moves, he fires.

If the Goblin wins, the archer doesn't get to shoot. He just wasn't quick enough off the draw. (Again, is this a problem?)

The only problem here occurs if the DM adjusts the Goblin's actions based on his (DM) knowledge of what the archer is going to do, or if the player adjusts the archer's actions based on his (player) knowledge of what the Goblin is going to do. (And, if we're actually dealing with two PCs, this may prove to be a greater problem, since one presumes both actions are declared out loud.)

So let us break down the situation. We have a potential adversary - a Bandit Lord and his minions - and a PC party. Suppose the encounter occurs on the road. It could be anywhere, but let's suppose the road to begin with. The Bandit Lord rides out of the woods some 300' down the road (or 1500' feet, or 30' feet, it doesn't matter really). Both the PC's and the Bandit Lord make their spot checks. Both see the other, and neither is surprised. Either side could act hostilely immediately now, and if winning the initiative could catch the other flat footed for a moment, but this is unlikely to happen as the PC's don't know the Bandit Lord and his men from the King's Huntsman or a group of noble Rangers at this point.

Yep, all true. Of course, hostile action is only possible with long-range weapons, but we knew that.

Now, we have one of two ways of proceeding. If we wanted to be petty about the rules, we ought roll initiative now whether the approaching party is bandits, rangers, or the king's huntsman.

Nah. If the PCs (or the bandits) decide to take hostile action, then roll for initiative at that point. If not, they continue to close. At some point, the groups identify one another. If they take hostile action at that point, roll for initiative then]. (After the hostile action is declared; before it is resolved.)

It's quite clear that the PC's do something of a the same, and since both have acted, even though we are 220' apart and doing no more than talking or other actions that aren't attack actions, neither side can catch the other flatfooted. They are prepared. They are carefully observing the other. The slightest flinch brings some sort of reflex and reaction. Both observe the other with a wary eye, like the henchmen of two mob bosses who don't like each other but who must meet in some out of the way place. The idea of at this point reacting and catching the other side unprepared is to be fully frank, nothing less than ridiculous.

The issue here is that "surprised" is not the same as "flat-footed". Yes, the two groups are warily approaching one another, keeping an eye on one another, looking for the slightest twitch. Therefore, neither can be surprised.

However, the moment one of them does twitch, and they both "go for their guns", one of the two is going to be that fraction "quicker on the draw". And in that instant, while they act and the other side doesn't, they have a slight advantage. In other words, the loser of the initiative roll is flat-footed.

And, it's equally clear that we can in fact walk around with a readied action if we want to. No rule prevents it.

As Hussar says, actually the rules do prevent it. The "special initiative actions" in the PHB (of which Ready is one) have no meaning when you're not acting in the initiative order.

Now, it's certainly true that if the villain goes into a speach that stretches across several rounds, that the players may interrupt such a speach at any time and knock a bow and proceed to unleash hell, but unless we run the game with the ridiculous notion that against a foe well aware of the characters and alert to the possibility of hostilities that this will somehow catch them 'flat footed' its quite probable that such silliness wouldn't arise since in most cases the only reason it happens is the PC expects a mechanical reward for their 'ruthlessness'.

Ultimately, if you want the PCs to listen to your villain monologuing, you need to discuss that with them. It's a playstyle issue - realistically, people don't wait for the bad guy to give a speech before unleashing hell. And, at the same time, you may want to agree a "last words" clause for PCs, allowing their character a chance to say something before they finally die.

As for PC interruptions to the bad guy's speech, the issue is not one of catching the bad guy "off his guard" - he can't be surprised, after all. It's a matter of "throwing the first punch". Sure, as soon as you go for your sword, he's going to react, both in trying to avoid/block your attack, and also (most likely) in trying to wipe you out in turn. So, it becomes a matter of determining who goes first - the very thing Initiative is used to resolve.

(What this does not advocate is that the PC's should be able to interrupt the bad guy's speech and consequently automatically win initiative and get a free round of actions. As soon as a PC declares he's going to interrupt, and before his interruption is resolved, you should roll for initiative. If the NPC wins, he obviously saw that slight twitch from the PC and just happened to get off his spell of mega-death first. (And, yes, he did know - or at least suspect - that you were going to attack; he just got there first.))

 

[Hussar]

Celebrim, you cannot roll for initiative with only one side. The orcs on the other side of the door have not made any sound, thus the party cannot take any hostile actions against them (presuming they don't know the orcs are there).

Calling for initiative is just announcing to the players, "Hey, there's badguys on the other side of this door!" That's giving them information that their character's shouldn't have.

How can I lose the chance for surprising an opponent because I heard him coming and he has no idea that I'm there?

The scenario with the orcs works like this:

1. PC's make a noise, the orcs make a listen check and succeed.
2. The orcs get ready for someone to come in, but no initiative is rolled.
3. The PC's open the door, the orcs gain a surprise round.
4. Initiative is rolled, with the chance that the PC's may still be flat footed.

You cannot initiate combat when neither side is actually threatening the other. I don't think this is specifically called out, but, it makes sense to me. The orcs cannot hurt someone on the other side of the door and the PC's aren't aware of the orcs. No threats, no combat possible.

 

[Celebrim]

You roll intiative when both sides are aware of the other and at least one side is planning to take hostile action (i.e. there will be 'combat').

The problem with all of that is that sometimes, you have no real way of knowing whether either side is 'planning' hostile action. Worse yet, the whole 'roll initiative' then becomes a metagame signal of each sides intentions.

You don't roll intiative (though you may track rounds) if only one side is aware of the other but is not taking hostile actions.

Why not? It's very easy to come up game scenarios where initiative seems to be called for, but neither side has yet taken an attack action. For example, suppose the PC is suppose to meet a elf in an alley who is a contact for a local group of freedom fighters. The PC goes into the darkened misty ally, and they see an elf ahead. Then the PC remembers that he also heard a rumor that an infamous elvish asssassin has been hired to kill the PC party. Why not run this scene as a combat scene where both sides need not necessarily take an attack action? Why does combat only begin with an attack action, rather than every other possible action you can take in combat? If the player signals that they want to take a full defence action, does that begin combat or not? If the player signals that they want to take a ready action, does that begin combat or not? Are ready actions only allowed on the second round of combat for some reason?

My point is simple. 'Combat' is an abstraction. The game inhabitants don't go in and out of combat subsystems. We start tracking 'combat' for metagame reasons, not because of anything in the game world, and _any_ action after a party is aware stops them being flatfooted. It's that simple.

 

[Celebrim]

You cannot initiate combat when neither side is actually threatening the other. I don't think this is specifically called out, but, it makes sense to me. The orcs cannot hurt someone on the other side of the door and the PC's aren't aware of the orcs. No threats, no combat possible.

You are getting hung up on particulars of an example. The example works just fine if it occurs in the forest and the ready action is, "I shoot whenever someone comes within 30'."

 

[pedr]

The problem with all of that is that sometimes, you have no real way of knowing whether either side is 'planning' hostile action. Worse yet, the whole 'roll initiative' then becomes a metagame signal of each sides intentions.

I think the way to do that is to roll initiative at the point where one player (or the GM) wants to do something hostile. If a player says "I shoot him!" you say "roll initiative". If the player loses the initiative, he can shoot, but not until after the target has acted. In other words, you have a very real way of knowing that there is going to be hostile action because one of the players has told you (or you have decided that as the GM). [/QUOTE]

 

[delericho]

'Combat' is an abstraction.

Exactly. Combat is an abstraction, and so is "flat-footed", "ready", "total defense" and "initiative". These all go together, in a manner described in the rules.

We start tracking 'combat' for metagame reasons, not because of anything in the game world, and _any_ action after a party is aware stops them being flatfooted. It's that simple.

The rules say otherwise. That's also quite simple.

As for how a character can be caught flat-footed by an attack he knows is coming: play some tennis sometime. Or badminton, squash, or pretty much any other racket sport. You know the serve (first attack) is coming, you know roughly when, you know roughly where, and you are on your guard for it... and you can still get caught out.