[4th ed] Clockwork Horrors now DEMONS? And Neogi...

[Silverblade The Ench]

WTH?!
I just got the Demonomicon 4th ed. in it, Clockwork horrors are now demonic constructs, made by Haagenti, the demon lord of alchemy and artifice.
Grrr hate them messing with cannon like that. Fine to change bits, but as a lover of SPelljammer, where the CLockwork Horrors started with, this ain't cool.
The Clockwork Horrors were found by the neogi, whom they promptly slaughtered and it's believed they wiped out the neogi homeworld (from various articles in Dragon, MC etc)

Now I'm glad they have been brought back, as they are great little gits, hehe, sort of like "Daleks for D&D" but...now they are demons this seriously causes issues for me anyways, of D&D lore.


so now they are demonic constructs, they have variable resistance, so far just a single minion version with only a melee attack is described, rather than the higher types having ranged attacks as well as they used to (there were several types before, each based on a metal, more preioius the metal, more powerful they got).

but the 4th ed versions have the nastiest ability EVER in D&D and I don't think the designers realize HOW bad it potentially is?!

when an enemy is bloodied, a fully functioning duplicate of the clockwork horror appears adjacent to the horror.

they are Small, so Imagine if a PC is SURROUNDED by 'em...ye gods!
yes, a critter that can EXPONENTIALLY increase in numbers! So you could soon have hundreds of 'em...

um...!

Also not too happy with them changing the Neogi in MM2, so now the Great Old Master is intelligent and runs the clan, totally against established and very apt cannon for the evil gits:
Great Old Masters are the end life cycle: a neogi's mind deterioriates with age, other neogi suddnlny attack it, their bites trigger transformation to great master and they implant their young in it.
Great old Masters are insane, dying as the spawn grow inside it and it dies soon after birthing.
No way they should be leaders of the clan!!

sigh...gets in way of a potential return of Spelljammer. *pleads, begs, whines pitifully!*

 

[bastrak]

The way 4e plays fast and loose with established D&D canon, often for no discernable reason, is IMO one of the greatest negative issues about 4e.

 

[Bold or Stupid]

The way 4e plays fast and loose with established D&D canon, often for no discernable reason, is IMO one of the greatest negative issues about 4e.

Oddly I consider this a strength. Though the reinventions are not always great, it means that the writers examine everything and rework it so it actually makes more sense without simply parroting the past.

 

[Silverblade The Ench]

Bastrak
oh I'd say a lot of the changes have been good or really improved the game
liek the Feywild with Formorians and cyclops, that is really good, IMHO, as it changes just another dumb giant who's only interesting things were ugliness and stealth in 2nd ed, into a far more dramatic and fun concept

Some stuff though, just didn't need changed. or was badly changed, sigh.

The negoi one bugs me more than the clockwork horrors, since you could say the horrors have been studied, copied and altered by the demon lord for his own needs (which IMHO would be a good way to alter their lore, hint hint WOTC! )
the current incarnation removes them from Spelljammer entirely, but also makes them utterly horrendous. Folk do get why expoential increase is an utter nightmare?

say you start with 20 minions = 5 critters worth of xp for an encounter with whatever traps/hazards or other critters that woudl work with them (mostly has to be constructs, maybe make a few non-minion horrors) etc.

if you don't kill the clockwork horrors ASAP, you are up the creek, and not everyone has a "character optimized" PC...or realize this issue at first with 'em.

A PC gets bloodied, right away, the horrors next to him double in number...including any ones that aren't minions.
if he gets healed then bloodied again, they double again...

if some are non-minions, the place will be FULL of with non-minion horrors...as they will survive longer than the minion ones against attacks, over a long fight, they become predominant in numbers.
So from a balanced XP fight, you end up having dozens or HUNDREDS of normal, non-minion critters...

"NUKE THE SITE FROM ORBIT, IT'S THE ONLY WAY TO BE SURE!"

the neogi lore change is also bad because it changes part of the way neogi work and are seen in the game.
Negoi's rule by will power, guile etc, NOT physical strength, they are cunning little b****ds of the first order: the strong rule the weak. the Old masters now rule by default due ot their incredible physical prowess, preventing the usual meritocracy which ensured they were run by the most devious, nastiest git of all....which was good for the game.
It even describes the new Old Masters as "drooling"...um so why are they supra intelligent then?

It's great to have a small, physically weak, very ugly spider-eel mutant whom most characters, even casters, could kick their butts, as a major bad guy race. It was the neogi's guile, spells and ability to enslave other's with magic, especially umber hulks, that made 'em so terrible
oh and they took the umber hulks out too, where as they used to be their personal "Lord servants" and having special ability to control them, gah!!!

 

[Shemeska]

It's pretty much a different game. There's no assumed continuity between 1e/2e/3e with 4e, and oftentimes that even seems to be the case with established campaign settings and their 4e namesakes.

Oddly I consider this a strength. Though the reinventions are not always great, it means that the writers examine everything and rework it so it actually makes more sense without simply parroting the past.

This assumes that every change was done with an intentional reason, and fully informed about the prior details and lore that were being deleted or retconned. Often the changes felt like change for its own sake, and not all the writers were on the same page at all for those changes, or being consistent with them.

 

[BrokeAndDrive]

I was introduced to the neogi in LoM, so I'm probably missing some 2e backstory that makes them interesting. As it stands, though, when I read up on them I think, "Oh god, slightly-prettier D&D Ferengi? Are you kidding me?"

Then again, I have a hate-on for "merchant races/species/people" in general. An entire group conforming to one archetype is about as illogical and nonsensical as every last stinkin' human is a basketball player. There is no way I'm putting Quark or Rom in any of my games. Morn... maybe. So long as he shuts up.

On-Topic: I like the idea of duplicating horrors, honestly. Puts a nice sense of danger and urgency in a battle. And about canon... well, sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger!

 

[Klaus]

1 - Could you quote the full text for the spawning ability? I'd like to understand it.

2 - Taking old elements and giving them a new spin is nothing new to D&D. Dark Sun, Spelljammer, Dragonlance, Eberron, all had different spins for familiar faces. If Spelljammer gets a release, maybe the Clockwork Horrors will be found delerict across the phlogistion, destroyed neogi ships around them. They'd be machines that were either built or infected by some evil, unnamable place (not unlike Event Horizon).

 

[Stoat]

I do not like Canon, and I approve of Change for the Sake of Change.

I welcome our new demonic spider overlords.

 

[MerricB]

To be fair, AD&D didn't keep canon with D&D. Indeed, it often didn't keep canon with earlier AD&D!

(Lareth the Beautiful serves who now?)

Planescape was a huge departure from the previous depiction of the planes - enough so that many, including myself, didn't want anything to do with it. (They did what to modrons? They're not mechanical!)

Cheers!

 

[Tiberius]

The Clockwork Horrors were found by the neogi, whom they promptly slaughtered and it's believed they wiped out the neogi homeworld (from various articles in Dragon, MC etc)

when an enemy is bloodied, a fully functioning duplicate of the clockwork horror appears adjacent to the horror.

That sounds awfully familiar. And awesome.

Replicator - Stargate Wiki

I don't much care for deviation from established canon myself, but I can work with these from the Replicator angle, I think.