Gaming Theory: M&M 2nd with Hit Points

Walking Dad

First Post
Page 111 of the Masterminds Manual has a sub-chapter of using M&M with Hit Points (and W&V) and level based advancement on p18. I will try to combine the two options in this thread to make M&M (and it's powers system) more compatible with d20 systems that use Classes and Hit points, particular d2o Modern.
 

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I will cite the OGC material regarding Hit Points in this post. Terms that are product identity of Green Ronin will be replaced by open terms from other d20 products. (BTW, the open PRD from Paizo has a 'Hero Point' section that describes their Action Point Variant (under Advanced New Rules).)

Masterminds Manual p. 3
The following is designated as Product Identity, in accordance with Section 1(e) of the Open Game License, Version 1.0a: all character and place names and descriptions, all artwork and images, power points, and hero points.
The following text is Open Game Content: all text in Chapters 1 through 9 and the Appendices, except for material previously declared Product Identity.
BBM

[sblock=Hit Points]
HIT POINTS
The damage rules in M&M are intended to speed play and simulate
the kind of damage characters suffer in superhero comic books.
Some players may prefer a damage system more compatible with
other games, in which case the variant rules presented here may be
used. They require the use of additional dice used in other roleplaying
games, available at game and hobby stores.

HIT POINTS
Characters in this system have hit points, which are a measure of
the character’s capacity to take damage. Characters have hit points
equal to their Constitution score plus their Constitution bonus multiplied
by 3. So a Con 10 character has 10 hit points and a Con 30
character has 60 hit points. Characters with no Con score have hit
points equal to five times their Toughness.
This needs to be changed in
a class using variant.
Minions have half the
normal hit points of regular characters; determine the minion’s hit
point total normally, then divide it by two and round down.
When the character suffers lethal damage, hit points are marked off.
Characters are disabled at 0 hit points, dying at –1 or fewer hit points,
and dead at –10 hit points. If a single lethal attack does more damage
than the character’s Constitution score, he must make a Fortitude save
(DC 15) or immediately go to –1 hit points and dying.
Stun attacks do not inflict damage to hit points. Instead, they do
subdual damage. When the total subdual damage equals the character’s
hit points, he is staggered. When the total subdual damage
exceeds his current hit points, he is unconscious. If a single attack
does more damage (subdual or hit points) than the character’s
Constitution score, he is stunned for one round.
Interesting the rules keep stunning. Other systems don't have a mechanic like this. But they have Massive Damage rules for single high damage attacks.

RECOVERY
Characters reduce their subdual damage by their Constitution bonus
for each minute of rest, with a minimum of 1 point per minute. They
recover their Constitution bonus in hit points for each day of rest with
a minimum of 1 point per day. Recovery speeds up these recovery rates
as usual, while a use of the Healing power allows the character to
recover 1d6 hit points (or eliminate 1d6 subdual damage) per power
rank. Proper medical treatment doubles recovery rates, as usual.
1d6 seems to be the standard when converting ranks to dice.

DAMAGE DICE
Instead of having a damage bonus, attacks inflict a certain number
of dice of damage. An attack with a +1 damage bonus does 1d4 hit
points of damage, +2 = 1d6, +3 = 1d8, and +4 or higher equals a
number of d6s equal to the attack’s bonus, minus 2
. d6 for higher damage ranks. So, an attack
with a damage bonus of +8 does 6d6 hit points of damage instead.
Stun and lethal damage remain the same. Attacks that do not inflict
damage, including Dazzle or Snare attacks, still require the normal
saving throw and have their normal effects.
A critical hit doubles the amount of damage an attack inflicts.
Roll the normal dice and multiply the total by two before applying
the damage to the target.

DAMAGE REDUCTION
Instead of adding to the character’s Toughness saving throws, powers
offering a Toughness save bonus provide damage reduction, reducing
the amount of damage inflicted. Multiply the power’s Toughness
bonus by 2 and reduce the damage inflicted by each attack on the
character by this amount. If the damage is reduced to 0 or less, it
has no effect on the character. For example, a hero with Protection
11 ignores the first 22 points of damage from each attack.
Impervious defenses multiply their Toughness bonus by 3 rather
than 2 to determine their Damage Reduction. So Impervious
Protection 11 provides damage reduction 33.
The Toughness save bonus from Defensive Roll also becomes
Damage Reduction, but with the same limitations as before.
Sounds like this DR is also Energy resistance of all types. Should maybe become a separate power.

DAMAGING OBJECTS
Objects have hit points equal to their Toughness x 5 and hardness
(damage reduction) equal to twice their Toughness. When an object
reaches 0 hit points, it is broken or destroyed.
Will use the d20 modern rule for these

ACTION POINTS
Heroes can spend action points to recover from damage just as they
can in the regular M&M system. An action point allows immediate
recovery of (Con bonus) hit points or subdual damage.
Note: The Action Points in M&M also have the feat emulation quality.

FIXED RESULTS
Rather than rolling for damage, the GM may choose to make it a
fixed result, such as 3 hit points of damage per point of damage
bonus (so +12 damage does 36 hit points of damage). You can even
combine fixed results with dice, such as having all but the last two
dice of an attack fixed (in which case +12 damage does 30 + 2d6
points of damage). Fixed results can speed things up, since players
won’t have to roll and add up as many dice.
This is a great idea! Should be applied to other damage rolls as well!


WOUND & VITALITY POINTS
Wound & Vitality (W&V) points are a variant of hit points. Instead of a
single pool of points to reflect damage, characters have two values.
Wound points represent the character’s ability to sustain injury.
Loss of wound points represents actual physical harm the character
suffers. Characters have wound points equal to their Constitution
score (or twice their Toughness for characters with no Con score).
Wound points operate like hit points in terms of the characters condition
(see the Hit Points section, previously).
Vitality points represent a character’s ability to avoid harm: ducking,
weaving, or otherwise escaping injury. As vitality points are lost
away, the character is being worn down to the point where a wrong
move will result in injury. Characters have vitality points equal to
twice their Constitution score (four times their Toughness for characters
with no Con score). Characters with no vitality points remaining
suffer wound damage from attacks.
We have to replace this with HD/level in a class based variant.
Minions in the W&V system have no vitality points; they have only
wound points, so all attacks injure them and they’re more likely to
be taken out by an attack.[/sblock]

DISCLAIMER: If their is any legal problem with posting the OGC information here to make a non-commercial fan variant that combines the CLASS and the HIT POINTS variant, please PM me.
This also goes to the fine staff of Green Ronin. I only started this thread after a new edition of the rules came out. Please PM me directly if you want it deleted because it could diminish you sales. Thanks.
 
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Code:
[FONT=Courier New]
LEVEL-BASED ADVANCEMENT

POWER ATTACK DEFENSE GOOD OTHER    FEATS   OTHER
LEVEL BONUS   [/FONT][FONT=Courier New]BONUS  SAVE SAVES
  [/FONT][FONT=Courier New] 1    +1       +1    +2   +0     +1 feat   +8 [I]character[/I] points
  2    +2       +2    +3   +0     —        +10 [/FONT][FONT=Courier New][I]character[/I][/FONT][FONT=Courier New] points
  3    +3       +3    +3   +1    +1 feat    +8 [/FONT][FONT=Courier New][I]character[/I][/FONT][FONT=Courier New] points
  4    +4       +4    +4   +1     —        +10 [/FONT][FONT=Courier New][I]character[/I][/FONT][FONT=Courier New] points
  5    +5       +5    +4   +1    +1 feat   +10 [/FONT][FONT=Courier New][I]character[/I][/FONT][FONT=Courier New] points
  6    +6       +6    +5   +2     —         +8 [/FONT][FONT=Courier New][I]character[/I][/FONT][FONT=Courier New] points
  7    +7       +7    +5   +2    +1 feat   +10 [/FONT][FONT=Courier New][I]character[/I][/FONT][FONT=Courier New] points
  8    +8       +8    +6   +2     —        +10 [/FONT][FONT=Courier New][I]character[/I][/FONT][FONT=Courier New] points
  9    +9       +9    +6   +3    +1 feat    +8 [/FONT][FONT=Courier New][I]character[/I][/FONT][FONT=Courier New] points
 10   +10      +10    +7   +3     —        +10 [/FONT][FONT=Courier New][I]character[/I][/FONT][FONT=Courier New] points
...[/FONT]
This level based advancement gives no HD and (class) skill information. We also have to check if it's power is similar to the effectiveness of the Modern d20 Base classes.

Disclaimer: If their is any legal problem with posting the OGC information here to make a non-commercial fan variant that combines the CLASS and the HIT POINTS variant, please PM me.
This also goes to the fine staff of Green Ronin. I only started this thread after a new edition of the rules came out. Please PM me directly if you want it deleted because it could diminish you sales. Thanks.
 
Last edited:

Page 111 of the Masterminds Manual has a sub-chapter of using M&M with Hit Points (and W&V) and level based advancement on p18. I will try to combine the two options in this thread to make M&M (and it's powers system) more compatible with d20 systems that use Classes and Hit points, particular d2o Modern.
Mind if I ask why? What is this trying to accomplish?
M&M supers rules for d20 modern games? Why?

By understanding the goal, we can be of more assistance.

(P.S. the M&M classes are much more effective than the d20 Modern basic classes.)
 

Use the AnimeSRD (put out by Guardians of Order and still easily available) and pull "Character Points" from it. These serve much the same function as "Power Points" in M&M.
 

...
M&M supers rules for d20 modern games? Why?

By understanding the goal, we can be of more assistance.

...

Because I like super powers rules and there is more d20 OGL material that uses classes and hit points than the other way.

I also like 'cross-over' games where super-heroes enter a D&D world and I would like to only change the 3-5 supers in the world and don't adapt all the rules of the setting and stats of the creatures to M&M.

And yes, the M&M class is much more powerful than other d20 classes, but it gives no HD / HP and skills.

No BaB, all weak save, d6 HP, int+0 Skill points / levels to 3 character points looks more in line with the base d20 modern classes.


Use the AnimeSRD (put out by Guardians of Order and still easily available) and pull "Character Points" from it. These serve much the same function as "Power Points" in M&M.

Yes, this is why I typed 'character points' above.
 


I dislike 'Energy Projector', 'speedster', 'Brick' etc. classes, too.

But in class based systems you measure the 'Power'/Experience of a character in class levels (or ECL = Effective Class Level).

Using a 'class' to give a character power/character points is just an easy way to introduce them into the established structure.

Another way would be a Level Adjustment (LA), but I personally hate the mechanic at it becomes harder to fit everything to one scale.

In short, I don't try to press the variability of superheroes in some fixed classes, but use the class structure to introduce powers into an existing game and keeping the CR mechanic to judge the difficulties of encounters.
 

In short, I don't try to press the variability of superheroes in some fixed classes, but use the class structure to introduce powers into an existing game and keeping the CR mechanic to judge the difficulties of encounters.

So in other words, You favor a "class-less class" based approach. That is giving us the point totals, and letting the user distribute as they see fit.
 

In short, suppose a player really really wants to play his superhero-x concept, but the rest of the group is either wants to play/continue a d20/3.5 campaign so rather than make him conform or wait, the dm has numerous options of getting him into the campaign, but whats a corresponding power level??
 

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