A solution to LA?

[Kerrick]

So I was looking over the Types/subtypes this morning, and I noticed this line from the Humanoid Type entry:

Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Humanoids of this sort are presented as 1st-level warriors, which means that they have average combat ability and poor saving throws.

I've been wrestling with a way to either fix the LA system or get rid of it entirely, and this gave me an idea: Why not apply class levels in place of racial HD ("levels")? For example, a stone giant with 10 levels of fighter has 4d8 (giant HD) + 10d10 (fighter HD). He keeps all his racial abilities, bonuses, and whatnot. If he gains 15 levels of fighter, he starts gaining extra d10s as normal. Since giant HD are worth less than class levels, CR-wise (according to UK's challenge ratings system, giants are 0.55/HD, and class levels are 0.8/level without equipment), you can make a small note for conversion - CR +0.33/level, round down. So if you want to add 10 levels, he becomes an ECL 15 (CR 12 for stone giant, +3 for his class levels).

Templates are even easier - you just add the CR modifier as an LA. For example, the vampire template (again, according to UK) is CR +7, which would translate to LA +4 (7 * 0.83). A L10 vampire fighter would thus be ECL 14.

It's a really simple fix, but I'm sure there's something wrong with it because it's so simple.

[Aus_Snow]

I've done some of this, where racial classes and such haven't been available (i.e., I've not got around to those ones yet .) For instance, a Succubus Sorceress, most recently.

By the way, the giant should increase by 0.25 CR per HD of Fighter, not 0.33. So actually, it looks more 'right' in the end (IMO): CR 14, rather than 15. After all, it's only gained a tiny amount of HP and 6 feats. Which doesn't seem much at all, the more I think about it. . .

But yeah, can't see too much wrong with the idea, in general terms.

[Kerrick]

By the way, the giant should increase by 0.25 CR per HD of Fighter, not 0.33. So actually, it looks more 'right' in the end (IMO): CR 14, rather than 15.

I divided 0.55 by 0.8, which gave me 0.67, so I figured a HD converted to level would be +1/3. +1/4 is probably closer to the mark.

After all, it's only gained a tiny amount of HP and 6 feats. Which doesn't seem much at all, the more I think about it. . .

It's not, really. The old ECL is LA + HD + CR, which leads me to think that LA just accounts for special abilities and stat boosts, not HD.

[Aus_Snow]

Guh, never mind. It was one of those moments I just shouldn't have posted. For some reason, I was getting mixed messages about CR, ECL and. . . well, the whole thing actually.

What I had been doing was similar, as it turns out, but not the same. A thing from DM-side, not player-, and therefore not necessarily relevant.

Sorry, that was quite the daftness on my behalf.

[Kerrick]

Originally Posted by Aus_Snow

Guh, never mind. It was one of those moments I just shouldn't have posted. For some reason, I was getting mixed messages about CR, ECL and. . . well, the whole thing actually.

What I had been doing was similar, as it turns out, but not the same. A thing from DM-side, not player-, and therefore not necessarily relevant.

Sorry, that was quite the daftness on my behalf.

Feel free to explain. I'd like to see a different take on this. Are you talking about working strictly with NPCs?

[Kerrick]

After playing around with things and testing stuff out, I've discovered a few things. (Note: I'll refer to racial HD as RHD hereafter to save space.)

Since racial abilities are part of the HD (much like class abilities are already factored into class levels), the formula ECL = HD + LA + class level is totally screwed - they're taxing you twice for those racial abilities. Not only that, but they're counting RHD as equal to class levels, which they're not. UK accounted for the differing saves, BAB, and skill points of each type by giving them different values, but even the best (dragon) is only 3/4 as good as a class level (assuming appropriate gear for the level; otherwise they're nearly equal).

Here's how it works:

Find the CR modifier for the monster's type (since we're using the stone giant, giant HD are 0.55) and convert that to class levels (1.0/level). Effectively, you divide 0.55 by 1 - so each racial HD is worth roughly half a class level. So, as the PC gains levels, he swaps his RHD for the newly gained levels. His ECL is 1/2 RHD (round down) + class level. For example, a stone giant Ftr 1 is ECL 6 (13/2, round down) + 1 = 7. At L5, he'd be ECL 4 (9/2) + 5 = 9. If you use this method, however, you can't calculate XP requirements based on ECL, since the ECL only increases every 4 levels (for this PC). Instead, the number of XP required is based on his character level as normal, and his ECL is used ONLY for determining his effective power level for things like what kind of enemies (and his party) can handle, or for the Leadership feat. Since the number of total HD (racial + class levels) remains static until class level exceeds the original RHD total, he doesn't suffer against spells and effects based on HD.

Effectively, his "level adjustment" decreases as he gains levels, until it becomes 0 when his class levels exceed his original RHD.

A stone giant Ftr 1 is ECL 7
A stone giant Ftr 4 is ECL 9
A stone giant Ftr 7 is ECL 10
A stone giant Ftr 10 is ECL 12
A stone giant Ftr 14 is ECL 14.


To use another example: the minotaur. Monstrous humanoid HD are 0.6, so we'd count 2/3 of the minotaur's HD as class levels.

A minotaur Ftr 1 is ECL 4.
A minotaur Ftr 4 is ECL 5.
A minotaur Ftr 7 is ECL 7.

So basically, a monster's entry would read something like: "Subtract the monster's class levels from its HD total, multiply the remaining HD by [CR modifier], and add that to the class level (round down)."

[Angrydad]

My understanding of the LA system is that a monsters LA is due to its stat bonuses, powers, natural armor, etc. while any Saves, HP, BAB, skills, etc. are due to its racial HD. In my campaigns we've always allowed players who want to be a monster race to do it as long as the LA +level(s) in a class or two was equal to the average party level. This means that a Minotaur fighter would be able to join the group when they were level 3 (LA of +2 added to level 1 fighter). It keeps us from having to do all the "racial HD are actually only .67 of a level in a class" calculating and so on. I think if you allowed a minotaur with a level of fighter to be considered a 4th level character (as in the above post) you'd find out he's considerably tougher/stronger than a 4th level human fighter. I'll just use the standard minotaur stats from the MM and then add 1 level of fighter.

HD: 6d8+12, 1d10+2 (46 hp) BAB/Grapple: +7/+15

These two figures alone make the minotaur fighter more powerful than any 4th level fighter type character. Admittedly, the minotaur may not have as many feats as a 4th level fighter, but he will have more HP (the only way a human fighter of 4th level could have 46 HP is to roll well, have a high Con, and take Toughness) and a better attack bonus that allows him an additional attack every round. The only way a 4th level fighter can get as many attacks is by two weapon fighting, but his to hit is going to be lower. Also, the minotaur fighter uses larger weapons and can dish out tons more damage thanks to his +8 Str modifier. A minotaur fighter using a greataxe does 3d6+6 damage per hit.

All my assumptions and the example I used are assuming the basic stats for the minotaur from the MM. If a player was allowed to roll up a minotaur character and place stats as chosen I think it would make for an even more powerful fighter. There's potential for a 26 Str from the start. That would make for 3d6+12 damage per hit with a greataxe.

[Klaus]

I give a monster Commoner levels equal to its LA. It's a class with all poor saves, poor BAB and low HD, but it's still easier to calculate than factoring in LA here and there.

[GlassEye]

Originally Posted by Kerrick

...according to UK's challenge ratings system...

Where would one find this information?

[Angrydad]

Originally Posted by Klaus

I give a monster Commoner levels equal to its LA. It's a class with all poor saves, poor BAB and low HD, but it's still easier to calculate than factoring in LA here and there.

So you give it Commoner levels in place of what? I think there's a lot of you who don't understand the LA system in d20 the same way I understand it. My understanding is simply this: if you want to see what level character a monster (just from the basic MM stats) would be compared to a PC race with class levels you just take the LA+the HD of the monster. It's that simple. If you don't want the monster to have all its racial HD you can simply give them varying amounts of levels in some heroic class to make things equal out to the party's average level. All these complicated equations you all keep mentioning and spreading out the monster's abilities over several levels, and all the other solutions just seem unnecessary and more trouble than they're worth.

[Klaus]

Originally Posted by Angrydad

So you give it Commoner levels in place of what? I think there's a lot of you who don't understand the LA system in d20 the same way I understand it. My understanding is simply this: if you want to see what level character a monster (just from the basic MM stats) would be compared to a PC race with class levels you just take the LA+the HD of the monster. It's that simple. If you don't want the monster to have all its racial HD you can simply give them varying amounts of levels in some heroic class to make things equal out to the party's average level. All these complicated equations you all keep mentioning and spreading out the monster's abilities over several levels, and all the other solutions just seem unnecessary and more trouble than they're worth.

In place of the LA adjustment on the XP table.

Take a drow, for instance. It's LA +2. So if you want to play a drow ranger (effectively a 3rd level character), you'd play a drow Commoner 2/Ranger 1. No more adjustments, adding LA here but not there, etc. It has two levels of Commoner to "eat up" the LA.

[Angrydad]

Originally Posted by Klaus

In place of the LA adjustment on the XP table.

Take a drow, for instance. It's LA +2. So if you want to play a drow ranger (effectively a 3rd level character), you'd play a drow Commoner 2/Ranger 1. No more adjustments, adding LA here but not there, etc. It has two levels of Commoner to "eat up" the LA.

But the problem with giving them levels in Commoner in place of the LA is the question of where do the powers and stat ups go? LA represents a monster race's extra powers, spell like abilities, and big stat bonuses. If your drow with commoner levels still gets its racial abilities PLUS the HD and such from Commoner then you've just made it more powerful than it should be.

[Kerrick]

I think if you allowed a minotaur with a level of fighter to be considered a 4th level character (as in the above post) you'd find out he's considerably tougher/stronger than a 4th level human fighter. I'll just use the standard minotaur stats from the MM and then add 1 level of fighter.

HD: 6d8+12, 1d10+2 (46 hp) BAB/Grapple: +7/+15

You're right, but I'm not using all the racial HD. A minotaur with 1 level of fighter would transfer 1 of his RHD to that class level, so it'd be:

HD: 5d8+10 + 1d10+2 (39 hp); BAB/Grapple: +6/+14*

*I'm going with a modified version of Pathfinder's CMB, so his grapple bonus would actually be +12, but that's really here nor there.

But again, you're right - he's still a bit more powerful than a typical L4 fighter; he's closer to a L5/6. I failed to account for the LA, which would give him those extra two levels. This is very much a work in progress; I'm kind of stumbling around, feeling things out here.

Where would one find this information?

Here's a copy - hosted with UK's permission.

[GlassEye]

Originally Posted by Kerrick

... hosted with UK's permission...

Thanks! That's a hefty chunk of information to digest. I appreciate the file; thanks again to you and UK. Now that I've seen the file I understand a little better where you're coming from.

The problem, I feel, is that it is the combination of racial hit dice and LA that (supposedly) balances out the extra powers/abilities. Compare the HD/LA of the gnoll and the bugbear. A gnoll has 2 racial hit dice, a bugbear has 3. Both have LA +1. Use this system to replace the racial hit dice and then give the gnoll an extra level to make the two equal in levels. Both would have 3 levels of a class and +1 LA but really aren't equal; the bugbear is better in all aspects (except coolness factor; gnolls are obviously superior in that respect ). Unfortunately, I have no clue how to go about coming up with a better system but I think yours is moving in the right direction.

[Klaus]

Originally Posted by Angrydad

But the problem with giving them levels in Commoner in place of the LA is the question of where do the powers and stat ups go? LA represents a monster race's extra powers, spell like abilities, and big stat bonuses. If your drow with commoner levels still gets its racial abilities PLUS the HD and such from Commoner then you've just made it more powerful than it should be.

As is often noted, LA tends to lose its intended effect as levels go up, creating the "paper tigers". The addition of commoner levels is meant to simplify the math. Getting +1/2 BAB, d4 HD, all poor saves and 2 skill points/level is better than getting nothing, but it's still worse than anything else. But it would make easier to create progressions like those in Savage Species.

[Roman]

I have advanced two solutions to LA over on the Pathfinder RPG boards, and although they were created with the Pathfinder RPG in mind, they might have some relevance for 3.5E too.

1) Instead of taking away a level, a level adjustment counts as a negative level(s) as defined in the Pathfinder RPG. Each negative level grants a -1 to all d20 rolls and imposes a -5hp penalty. (If you think this is too harsh, you could remove the -5hp penalty to avoid glass jawed superheroes.)

2) The second concept gives every normal character three virtual/racial levels that grant what the character would normally be granted for free at level one. A level adjustment then removes a corresponding number of those virtual/racial levels (before moving on to real levels, or general levels if it is greater than 3). For more exposition on this system check my thread on the Paizo board and bear in mind that it is suited to the Pathfinder RPG, but I think it would work well in 3.5E too. Here is the link: paizo.com - Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / PathfinderTM / Pathfinder RPG / Design Forums / Ability Scores and Races / Racial Skills, Hit Points and Other Bonuses - Solution to Skills and LA

[Kerrick]

The problem, I feel, is that it is the combination of racial hit dice and LA that (supposedly) balances out the extra powers/abilities. Compare the HD/LA of the gnoll and the bugbear.

Yeah. It would be more accurate to say CR + class levels = ECL, really.

Unfortunately, I have no clue how to go about coming up with a better system but I think yours is moving in the right direction.

I think so too, but I'm not there yet. This has been one of the harder systems I've tried to fix. I have to account for LA, even if I'm converting HD to levels. Right now, I'm using the stone giant, minotaur, and bugbear as test cases; I've gotten it to where ECL = class level at L15 for the minotaur* (from L8-14, it's LA +1); the bugbear has an LA +1 for the first level only, and the stone giant at L25.

I've still got a few issues to hash out, after I get the numbers straight - what happens to the racial skill points and feats, for instance? Do they just go away, are they kept and reassigned, or are they just kept as-is?

*BTW, if I account for the minotaur's LA, he's ECL 6 at L1.

Instead of taking away a level, a level adjustment counts as a negative level(s) as defined in the Pathfinder RPG.

How are negative levels defined in PF? I've never seen an explanation of how that works. I think people have put that idea forward before (as in, a couple years ago), but it never took - it's basically the same thing as Savage Species' racial levels, where you have to take them all before you can take any "real" levels, leading to frustration on the players' part.

The second concept gives every normal character three virtual/racial levels that grant what the character would normally be granted for free at level one.

Those aren't really "racial levels" - that's just a competence bonus reflecting the fact that the character is more competent at those skills than most people.

[Roman]

Originally Posted by Kerrick

How are negative levels defined in PF? I've never seen an explanation of how that works.

It is very simple. Each negative level grants a -1 penalty to all d20 checks (attack rolls, skill checks, saving throw rolls, etcetera) and -5 hit points. No class features or other stuff is lost. I have proposed the idea of using negative levels for LA before on the Pathfinder forums and I believe also here on ENWorld, but I can no longer find the links to either thread, where I probably explained it in more detail. Still, the idea is simply - each +1 LA would simply grant a permanent negative level that cannot be removed in any way.

Example:

We have a party of three characters at ECL 6:

Human Wizard
Earth Genasi Fighter
Drow Priestess

Humans have no LA, Earth Genasi have LA +1 and Drow have LA +2


Under the standard LA system, the party would look like this:

Human Wizard 6
Genasi Fighter 5
Drow Priestess 4


Under my "LA as Negative Levels" system, the party would look like this:

Human Wizard 6
Genasi Fighter 6
Drow Priestess 6

The Genasi Fighter would have a permanent -1 to all d20 rolls and -5 hit points and the Drow Priestess would have a permanent -2 to all d20 rolls and -10 hit points from their negative levels.

As I already mentioned, the hit point penalty could be discussed or even removed, since one of LA's problems is creating glass jaw heroes, but we would have to be very careful about such a tweak, as we don't want to swing he balance situation the other way.

It's basically the same thing as Savage Species' racial levels, where you have to take them all before you can take any "real" levels, leading to frustration on the players' part.

It is not the same at all. I think you will agree if you read the above.

Those aren't really "racial levels" - that's just a competence bonus reflecting the fact that the character is more competent at those skills than most people.

Those indeed aren't really racial levels. I have, however, organized them into virtual levels in the thread I linked.

[Kerrick]

It is very simple. Each negative level grants a -1 penalty to all d20 checks (attack rolls, skill checks, saving throw rolls, etcetera) and -5 hit points. No class features or other stuff is lost.

Ah, okay. So they took the RAW rule and just dropped the "you lose XP and all class abilities related to the lost levels" thing. Smart.

The Genasi Fighter would have a permanent -1 to all d20 rolls and -5 hit points and the Drow Priestess would have a permanent -2 to all d20 rolls and -10 hit points from their negative levels.

As I already mentioned, the hit point penalty could be discussed or even removed, since one of LA's problems is creating glass jaw heroes, but we would have to be very careful about such a tweak, as we don't want to swing he balance situation the other way.

Why not just drop 1 HD instead of 5 hit points? Not all classes have 5 hp as average per HD; in fact, that rule screws everyone except the fighter classes (and I've never liked the "one size fits all" penalty anyway). So, a mage (d4) would lose 2 hp; a cleric/bard/etc. would lose 3; a fighter would lose 5; and a barbarian would lose 6.

It is not the same at all. I think you will agree if you read the above.

Yeah, I see the difference now. I thought you were giving them levels they could "work off", like the old apprenticeship system (from 2E, I think), where you could start at -1 or -2 level and work your way up.

Those indeed aren't really racial levels. I have, however, organized them into virtual levels in the thread I linked.

Yeah, I read that. But what I'm saying is that they don't really make sense as virtual levels, since the only thing you're gaining is 1 skill point/level.


Back to the original topic... I was thinking about this at work today, and I think I've got a workable idea. Neverwinter Nights deals with LA classes in a rather unique way - it gives you racial levels equal to your LA. I play in a persistent world, and we've got a few LA races - gnolls (+2, because Bioware screwed up), wemics (+3), and one or two others. If you play a gnoll fighter PC, your character sheet would say "Monstrous Humanoid 2/Fighter x". Same with wemic - you'd have a Beast 3/Fighter x. You get the BAB, saves, stat bonuses, and racial abilities from your monster levels - that's it. You don't get skill points or HD (a wemic fighter 1 with Con 19 would have 22 hp - 10 hp at 1st level, +12 from Con bonus over 4 levels).

It's kind of wonky, and I certainly wouldn't suggest using that exact system for PnP, but something similar could work. Say, use the above system, but grant the effective number of HD converted to class levels (frex, a stone giant would have 9 levels of giant) along with all the extras. All of his racial abilities (including BAB, saves, and skill points) are assumed to be spread out over the class levels like a normal class, and the PC is treated as a level whatever (in the case of the stone giant, he'd be L10 to start - Giant 9/Fighter 1, or whatever). This means:

a) You can't play a really powerful race out of the gate (i.e., in a party with a bunch of L1s), but I'm fine with that;

b) The races should be* roughly equivalent in power with others of the same level.

*"Should be" being the operative phrase; it'd require some playtesting to see.

So, as an example, the stone giant Ftr 1:

HD: 11d8+1d10+72 (127 hp)
BAB: +12
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +6, Will +4
Stats*: Str 30, Dex 17, Con 23, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8
Skill points: 41
Feats: 6
Extras: Large size, rock throwing/catching, increased reach/speed, +11 natural armor (according to UK's guidelines, should be +5 at most).

*Assuming heroic array, in the following order: 14, 13, 15, 12, 10, 8

Compared to a human Ftr 12:

HD: 12d10+36 (102)
BAB: +12
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +5, Will +5
Stats: Str 15*, Dex 13, Con 16*, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8
Skill points: 53 (counting extra points for human)
Feats: 10
Extras: None

*Stat boost applied

These PCs are pretty freaking close in power. The fighter's got 4 more feats, but the giant's abilities make up for it. If you really feel uncomfortable giving the giant gear equivalent to his level (12), you can treat him as a few levels lower.

[Aus_Snow]

I think the giant's Fort save should be +15. And they get low-light vision and darkvision, FWIW.

As for them being close in power. . . not that close, from where I'm standing! If they were both greatsword wielders, for example (a pretty typical Fighter build), then while the human could have say, Greater Weapon Specialisation, and so - without taking magical/unusual items into account - might be doing 2d6+7 damage, with whatever Power Attack might provide as well, the giant might be doing 3d6+15, with the same PA potential of course. Without PA, that's an average of 14 vs. an average of 25.5, per hit. Then there's reach. . .

Comparing all those extras, including fairly crazy stats and insane armour, to 4 feats, 12 skill points, and access to higher level Fighter feats. . . it doesn't really seem like a competition, even.

Giving the giant gear as if they were a few levels lower is an interesting idea. . . but I'm still not sure that would balance things out for the ppor old human here.

Or am I missing something, regarding all these numbers and stuff?